DOA5 Ultimate coming this Fall

Commented on 2013-05-10 15:49:43

New intro pose for Kasumi spotted. New moves for Kasumi (so I'm sure others will get some, too). New hairstyle for Leifang.

Awesome in-yo-face-Buddha dangerzone. Nice japanese styled environment (NGS2 stage). Leon is back. Ein and Tengu maybe too. If it is not too expensive and all the DLC outfits are included, I think I will get DOA5U.

In reply to

GunsnSwords

Commented on 2013-05-10 19:16:58

Did you know that Momiji is 58,158 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/e6a7h0.jpg

And that Razor's edge Ayane is 106,763 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/3599ybk.jpg

that is just crazy.

In reply to

Sath

Commented on 2013-05-10 19:20:28

And the game still play like complete shit almost full time :P (NG3 "fix edition") that is.

In reply to

KORNdog

Commented on 2013-05-10 19:21:40 In reply to GunsnSwords

Posted by GunsnSwords

Did you know that Momiji is 58,158 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/e6a7h0.jpg

And that Razor's edge Ayane is 106,763 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/3599ybk.jpg

that is just crazy.

Yeah...crazy inefficient. Considering the characters look so crappy, a decent modeller could have used half that and achieved better results.

In reply to

bleachedsmiles

Commented on 2013-05-10 19:28:40

great so story modes back in it. Didn't get this first time round but will definatly be picking it up at some point.

In reply to

gilly

Commented on 2013-05-10 19:38:18

Never played this series. lol. I thought of getting it but seems it was not that good. I do not think I will get another fighting game this gen now.

In reply to

GunsnSwords

Commented on 2013-05-10 19:49:43 In reply to KORNdog

Posted by KORNdog

Yeah...crazy inefficient. Considering the characters look so crappy, a decent modeller could have used half that and achieved better results.

I actually can't recall any characters being modeled "better" without needing to emphasizes a lot on textures. in comparison to uncharted which is less than half and places a majority of polygons towards a character wearing T shirts and genes. If you look at Tecmo's complicated characters they're using 3D detailing appose to 2D texturing.

you're also forgetting the point that Tecmo's games run at 60 fps.

In reply to

KORNdog

Commented on 2013-05-10 20:07:43 In reply to GunsnSwords

Posted by GunsnSwords

I actually can't recall any characters being modeled "better" without needing to emphasizes a lot on textures. in comparison to uncharted which is less than half and places a majority of polygons towards a character wearing T shirts and genes. If you look at Tecmo's complicated characters they're using 3D detailing appose to 2D texturing.

you're also forgetting the point that Tecmo's games run at 60 fps.

Inefficient modelling is inefficient modelling. They seem to be the sort of developers who would spend 120tri's modelling a cube...lol

In reply to

INDIGO

Commented on 2013-05-10 20:09:41

So I guess I'll stop buying new Team Ninja games and instead wait for the better versions to come along later.

Also I see nothing really wrong with their models. They're not as efficient as they could be, but the games DO run at 60fps so clearly they don't need to worry about poly counts. 60-100K is a lot, but it's also about the same as the car models in any racing game in the past 5 years.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-05-10 20:53:08

10th picture...damn, didn't know they build roofs out of grip tape in Japan :P

Looks pretty lame.

In reply to

GunsnSwords

Commented on 2013-05-10 20:54:12 In reply to KORNdog

Posted by KORNdog

Inefficient modelling is inefficient modelling. They seem to be the sort of developers who would spend 120tri's modelling a cube...lol

IF the cube had a significant importance (like boobs) then maybe i'd agree.

Posted by INDIGO

60-100K is a lot, but it's also about the same as the car models in any racing game in the past 5 years.

bingo.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-05-10 20:59:37 In reply to GunsnSwords

Posted by GunsnSwords

Did you know that Momiji is 58,158 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/e6a7h0.jpg

And that Razor's edge Ayane is 106,763 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/3599ybk.jpg

that is just crazy.

eh, cranking out polygons in a fighter shouldn't be a problem. The only thing impressive about it is that they still don't seem to know how to bake a freaking bumpmap. Though impressive is hardly the word, more baffling. I mean look at the distribution of polygons on that Ayane model. Pathetic. Look at the density of the handles of her swords...what the f**ck were they thinking? You could scale that down to a tube and make it look just as good with a diff and a spec map. You'd never even notice while playing the game. Now the characters look average and have a shit ton of useless tris, while the stage geometry looks like something out of a PS2 game with higher res textures.

In reply to

GunsnSwords

Commented on 2013-05-10 20:59:40 In reply to Megido

Posted by Megido

10th picture...damn, didn't know they build roofs out of grip tape in Japan :P

Looks pretty lame.

balsa wood i think. It can brake off into sharp little shards pretty easily.

Edit- to the rest of your comment about polygons, if you find the original source of where the pictures came from there's an explanation behind it. texturing cuts down on the performance more than polygons. because these consoles have more computational power over system memory, it's faster to just model it anyways than to make highres maping in exchange.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-05-10 21:03:25

Pretty sure roofing tiles should be on there, not just random grain :P

Edit; actually i was wrong, turns out that type of roofing is correct in some instances. Would still be by far better looking with the tiled type roofing, that is not entirely uncommon on buildings of this fashion.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-05-10 21:21:23 In reply to GunsnSwords

Posted by GunsnSwords

balsa wood i think. It can brake off into sharp little shards pretty easily.

Edit- to the rest of your comment about polygons, if you find the original source of where the pictures came from there's an explanation behind it. texturing cuts down on the performance more than polygons. because these consoles have more computational power over system memory, it's faster to just model it anyways than to make highres maping in exchange.

Oh, i'm quite aware of that. What i'm saying is that they are making a poor choice in terms of tradeoff. Effective mapping and using some judgement in terms of what the player will be able to actually see in the game will go a long way to make games like these look prettier. Not to mention, it's all got at least a diff and a spec on anyway. I hardly think any part of any model in the game is just a plain material.

Anyway, i think they could certainly have pulled back on the character geometry and put more of those polygons in to the levels for a much greater effect. Just seems like very poor prioritizing of resources to me.

In reply to

[quote=GunsnSwords]

balsa wood i think. It can brake off into sharp little shards pretty easily.

Edit- to the rest of your comment about polygons, if you find the original source of where the pictures came from there's an explanation behind it. texturing cuts down on the performance more than polygons. because these consoles have more computational power over system memory, it's faster to just model it anyways than to make highres maping in exchange.[/quote]

Oh, i'm quite aware of that. What i'm saying is that they are making a poor choice in terms of tradeoff. Effective mapping and using some judgement in terms of what the player will be able to actually see in the game will go a long way to make games like these look prettier. Not to mention, it's all got at least a diff and a spec on anyway. I hardly think any part of any model in the game is just a plain material.

Anyway, i think they could certainly have pulled back on the character geometry and put more of those polygons in to the levels for a much greater effect. Just seems like very poor prioritizing of resources to me.

Tinks

Commented on 2013-05-10 22:46:02 In reply to INDIGO

Posted by INDIGO

So I guess I'll stop buying new Team Ninja games and instead wait for the better versions to come along later.

Welcome to all fighting games this generation

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-05-10 23:43:14

The good ones have been safe though, that being VF and Tekken. No bullshit 500 versions like crapcom :P

In reply to

FemaleTengu

Commented on 2013-05-11 00:04:57

btw, the Razors Edge Ayane is not from a fighter. That's from an action game ;)

And the models are indeed pretty impressive, but that's normal for japanese developers. Even Momijis Weapon uses a lot of polys, with all its details. And IMO I think it looks much better if you actually can see a detail, made completely out of polys and not some weird cube thing, with crazy blurry bump maps, which shall resemble a bag or so and look ugly in close up scenes. Becasue that is unfortunately a common thing in many western games when it comes to models and their details.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-05-11 00:12:38 In reply to FemaleTengu

Posted by FemaleTengu

btw, the Razors Edge Ayane is not from a fighter. That's from an action game ;)

And the models are indeed pretty impressive, but that's normal for japanese developers. Even Momijis Weapon uses a lot of polys, with all its details. And IMO I think it looks much better if you actually can see a detail, made completely out of polys and not some weird cube thing, with crazy blurry bump maps, which shall resemble a bag or so and look ugly in close up scenes. Becasue that is unfortunately a common thing in many western games when it comes to models and their details.

Basically yes, i agree that if it's reasonable to do it with polygons it will look better, but when you have the highest polygon density in the goddamn handle of a sword prop that you'll barely notice in the game, you've done it wrong. Very VERY wrong. And again, you have finite resources when making your graphics, where do you want to put it? In the case of this game, it looks like it all went in to the characters and very little was left for the arena.

I mean, honestly. Even if some of the details were made using normal maps, you wouldn't even notice the difference. Is it really necessary to model the seams on the clothes for example? It's just a tremendous waste on something that would have looked just as good if it was just drawn in to the diff map. I mean i love the technical side of graphics, how it's made and the thinking around the production of assets, so i personally find smart solutions and good use of resources by far more impressive and cool than just shoveling on tris. But that's just me.

In reply to

[quote=FemaleTengu]btw, the Razors Edge Ayane is not from a fighter. That's from an action game  ;)

And the models are indeed pretty impressive, but that's normal for japanese developers. Even Momijis Weapon uses a lot of polys, with all its details. And IMO I think it looks much better if you actually can see a detail, made completely out of polys and not some weird cube thing, with crazy blurry bump maps, which shall resemble a bag or so and look ugly in close up scenes. Becasue that is unfortunately a common thing in many western games when it comes to models and their details.[/quote]

Basically yes, i agree that if it's reasonable to do it with polygons it will look better, but when you have the highest polygon density in the goddamn handle of a sword prop that you'll barely notice in the game, you've done it wrong. Very VERY wrong. And again, you have finite resources when making your graphics, where do you want to put it? In the case of this game, it looks like it all went in to the characters and very little was left for the arena.

I mean, honestly. Even if some of the details were made using normal maps, you wouldn't even notice the difference. Is it really necessary to model the seams on the clothes for example? It's just a tremendous waste on something that would have looked just as good if it was just drawn in to the diff map. I mean i love the technical side of graphics, how it's made and the thinking around the production of assets, so i personally find smart solutions and good use of resources by far more impressive and cool than just shoveling on tris. But that's just me.

bleachedsmiles

Commented on 2013-05-11 01:49:21

I dunno why people complain about the character models in the DOA series.. they've always been the best looking models of any fighting game...as has the animaton

In reply to

KORNdog

Commented on 2013-05-11 02:01:00 In reply to bleachedsmiles

Posted by bleachedsmiles

I dunno why people complain about the character models in the DOA series.. they've always been the best looking models of any fighting game...as has the animaton

Best character models in what sense? The amount of poly's they have? Or the actual quality of the models? Cos they certainly acheive the former...not so much the later. I'd say soul calibur had better animations too.

In reply to

FemaleTengu

Commented on 2013-05-11 02:11:13

I agree Megido. But who knows. Seems like for japanese devs the framerate is much more important than the actual graphics (for a fighting game that's indeed very important). The sweat and water effects and very good looking skin textures may be a reason for the "weak" environments in DOA5..even though they sre highly interactive on the other side. Tbh, the DOA and NG engines are pretty outdated by now. TN did their best what they can do I guess. And I also think that they don't have the best tech team around ;p like most japanese studios. For some reason they always refuse to use new tech or proper usage of current tech. Japan is a funny country with an even more funnier mentality, lol.

Still, DOA5 looks good compared to other fighters. I hope the best with the new console generation.

@Korndog

Well, SCs animations are a lot like Tekkens or SF. Stiff. Maybe for the faster gameplay. But DOA is actually known for having the best animations in the fighting genre (started with DOA2). Not saying it means better gameplay, but DOAs animations/mo-cap at some parts still look very impressive.

I agree with the models. Before DOA5 came out, DOAs models weren't that awesome, mostly because of the anime style and the huge detailed multi-leveled environments. With DOA5 it's less bigger environments but better characters.

In reply to

I agree Megido. But who knows. Seems like for japanese devs the framerate is much more important than the actual graphics (for a fighting game that's indeed very important). The sweat and water effects and very good looking skin textures may be a reason for the "weak" environments in DOA5..even though they sre highly interactive on the other side. Tbh, the DOA and NG engines are pretty outdated by now. TN did their best what they can do I guess. And I also think that they don't have the best tech team around  ;p  like most japanese studios. For some reason they always refuse to use new tech or proper usage of current tech. Japan is a funny country with an even more funnier mentality, lol.

Still, DOA5 looks good compared to other fighters. I hope the best with the new console generation.

@Korndog

Well, SCs animations are a lot like Tekkens or SF. Stiff. Maybe for the faster gameplay. But DOA is actually known for having the best animations in the fighting genre (started with DOA2). Not saying it means better gameplay, but DOAs animations/mo-cap at some parts still look very impressive.

I agree with the models. Before DOA5 came out, DOAs models weren't that awesome, mostly because of the anime style and the huge detailed multi-leveled environments. With DOA5 it's less bigger environments but better characters.

Megido

Commented on 2013-05-11 02:17:13

Not saying that DoA looks awful, i'm just saying it could probably look a lot better if they spent more time thinking of how to best spend their polygons and texture maps.

As for the animations, i think DoA is kinda weak on that front. Certainly not on par with games like Soul Calibur or Tekken. Then again, i can live with mediocre animations if the game is good. Like with VF.

In reply to

spacemanjupiter

Commented on 2013-05-11 04:03:30 In reply to GunsnSwords

Posted by GunsnSwords

Did you know that Momiji is 58,158 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/e6a7h0.jpg

And that Razor's edge Ayane is 106,763 polygons.
http://oi47.tinypic.com/3599ybk.jpg

that is just crazy.

Too bad the game doesn't render them nearly that well.

In reply to

spacemanjupiter

Commented on 2013-05-11 04:15:28 In reply to FemaleTengu

Posted by FemaleTengu

btw, the Razors Edge Ayane is not from a fighter. That's from an action game ;)

And the models are indeed pretty impressive, but that's normal for japanese developers. Even Momijis Weapon uses a lot of polys, with all its details. And IMO I think it looks much better if you actually can see a detail, made completely out of polys and not some weird cube thing, with crazy blurry bump maps, which shall resemble a bag or so and look ugly in close up scenes. Becasue that is unfortunately a common thing in many western games when it comes to models and their details.

I think the problem here is that the characters here are high poly and still look like crap. Doesn't take much talent to do that. These models could have been modeled more intelligently with fewer polys and could have looked better.
Still looks better than other fighting games. But I got tired of all these fighting games at least 4 years ago. They never really change, they just look slightly different. They never evolve at their core. It's the same feel, same gameplay, same animation, etc. Animation tech is way behind geometry and lighting. There are some games out there that would look almost photo real, but then you see it move. Fighting games should be at the top but they all move like crap in my opinion.

In reply to

[quote=FemaleTengu]btw, the Razors Edge Ayane is not from a fighter. That's from an action game  ;)

And the models are indeed pretty impressive, but that's normal for japanese developers. Even Momijis Weapon uses a lot of polys, with all its details. And IMO I think it looks much better if you actually can see a detail, made completely out of polys and not some weird cube thing, with crazy blurry bump maps, which shall resemble a bag or so and look ugly in close up scenes. Becasue that is unfortunately a common thing in many western games when it comes to models and their details.[/quote]

I think the problem here is that the characters here are high poly and still look like crap. Doesn't take much talent to do that. These models could have been modeled more intelligently with fewer polys and could have looked better. 
Still looks better than other fighting games. But I got tired of all these fighting games at least 4 years ago. They never really change, they just look slightly different. They never evolve at their core. It's the same feel, same gameplay, same animation, etc. Animation tech is way behind geometry and lighting. There are some games out there that would look almost photo real, but then you see it move. Fighting games should be at the top but they all move like crap in my opinion.

DOA5 Ultimate coming this Fall

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