Forza Motorsport 3 : Thread

Since 7033 Days

Seriously, what are you whining about? Acert just explained to you how the change isn't performance related at all, and here you are talking about how they had to cut corners because of performance? Would you care to back any of this up? And if you agree that the new view is better for gameplay, why do you even care? It seems to me that you're just arguing for argument's sake, because this whole issue is completely trivial.

In reply to

GriftGFX

Since 7017 Days

Welcome to a Forza Motor Sports thread. We'll do it all again for FM4.

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Optimusv2

Since 6909 Days

Pardon me Freniger, but Acert isn't a developer for Forza Motorsport 3, and I'm pretty certain that I'm not either. All that we're left doing now is making assumptions.

Here's what I do know: The game was unable to achieve 60fps while in cockpit view and was instead running at 30 frames per second, and even then there were obvious frame rate hitches spotted on numerous gameplay videos.

If they do intend to have the cockpit view running at 60 fps, then they will have done something in order to rectify the problem they are having. What changed since E3? The cockpit views are now showing much less geometry than they were showing before. Is it now suddenly protocol to believe everything Che says? There was a time where just about everything he said was called into question. I'm shocked that something as blatantly obvious as "the view wasn't changed due to performance issues" isn't being jumped on as bs, because it surely is. Some of the cockpits look downright pitiful compared to what they use to look like. Just telling it like it is.

In reply to

Pardon me Freniger, but Acert isn't a developer for Forza Motorsport 3, and I'm pretty certain that I'm not either. All that we're left doing now is making assumptions.

Here's what I do know: The game was unable to achieve 60fps while in cockpit view and was instead running at 30 frames per second, and even then there were obvious frame rate hitches spotted on numerous gameplay videos.

If they do intend to have the cockpit view running at 60 fps, then they will have done something in order to rectify the problem they are having. What changed since E3? The cockpit views are now showing much less geometry than they were showing before. Is it now suddenly protocol to believe everything Che says? There was a time where just about everything he said was called into question. I'm shocked that something as blatantly obvious as "the view wasn't changed due to performance issues" isn't being jumped on as bs, because it surely is. Some of the cockpits look downright pitiful compared to what they use to look like. Just telling it like it is.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

bloodforge

Since 7011 Days

The game wasn't able to achieve 60fps in cockpit view because it was the last thing they implemented before the first showing. It also uses a different shadowing method than the other views and it wasn't optimised yet(Turn10 have conformed this in interviews). All the cockpits we have seen so far have not changed in detail from the ones we have first seen, the only difference is the view is further ahead for game play purposes. You seem to not want to believe anything they say, and its getting a bit ridiculous.

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Consoles: Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, PSP, DS, PS2, XBOX
Gaming PC: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600, 6gb ddr2-800ram, Nvidia Geforce 8800GT OC 512, Windows 7 64bit RC1

deftangel

Since 6885 Days

Only in the Forza thread can people who clearly know what they're talking about can be so brazenly ignored.

It in extremely unlikely cockpit view has anything to do with geometry. Where ever the camera is, the game still has to create the world/geometry every frame and do the appropriate culling to work out what to show and what not to.

The internal geometry of the car should be a fixed amount and by and large easy to plan for. Could there be other issues, like post processing or shaders? Possibly but nobody here knows anything like enough to say so with any degree of authority. The game is still in development, wild assumptions about final frame rates based on development footage equally mean fuck all as well.

If Turn10 didn't think it could hit 60fps with the cockpit view as initially envisaged it wouldn't have spent a ton of money paying people to render those interiors at that level of detail.

The Forza developers have also been on record to say they want to make this game more accessible. This change to the cockpit view is not inconsistent with that.

It's got zip to do with Che who I trust about as much as most of the armchair graphics experts on the internet. i.e. not much.

In reply to

Only in the Forza thread can people [b]who clearly know what they're talking about[/b] can be so brazenly ignored.

It in extremely unlikely cockpit view has anything to do with geometry. Where ever the camera is, the game still has to create the world/geometry every frame and do the appropriate culling to work out what to show and what not to.

The internal geometry of the car should be a fixed amount and by and large easy to plan for. Could there be other issues, like post processing or shaders? Possibly but nobody here knows anything like enough to say so with any degree of authority. The game is still in development, wild assumptions about final frame rates based on development footage equally mean fuck all as well.

If Turn10 didn't think it could hit 60fps with the cockpit view as initially envisaged it wouldn't have spent a ton of money paying people to render those interiors at that level of detail.

The Forza developers have also been on record to say they want to make this game more accessible. This change to the cockpit view is not inconsistent with that.

It's got zip to do with Che who I trust about as much as most of the armchair graphics experts on the internet. i.e. not much.

XBL/PSN: deftangel. Views are my own and not representative of my employers. Boulets aren't the end of the world, you will get over them! Reading and constructive discussion classes are available, enquire via PM

alimokrane

Since 6947 Days

It seems this Forza thread is following on the tradtion of all Forza threads that lay before it: "A never-ending technical debate" .... good times :D

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 6909 Days

Well, whatever the case, some of the cockpit views I'm seeing right now look atrocious to the point that they'd probably be better off not being there at all.

Ultimately you and Acert may be right and I could very well be way off on my assumption that the change was made due to performance issues, but I hope they adjust the view of some of those cockpits because some of them look horrific. Or maybe it's just terrible quality youtube vids making them look worse than they truly are.

In reply to

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

deftangel

Since 6885 Days

My initial research led me to some ferocious debate about cockpit views in general so in short, some people will like the new view. Some people not. Can't please everyone and at this late stage, there is no way they could test an adjustable view or have both and not put the release date at risk.

In reply to

XBL/PSN: deftangel. Views are my own and not representative of my employers. Boulets aren't the end of the world, you will get over them! Reading and constructive discussion classes are available, enquire via PM

GriftGFX

Since 7017 Days

Less car = better. The cockpit view in games is awesome looking, but hardly the best for gameplay. The bumper/Hood camera position has always served me much, much better.

In reply to

Jin187

Since 6761 Days

Posted by Optimusv2

Well, whatever the case, some of the cockpit views I'm seeing right now look atrocious to the point that they'd probably be better off not being there at all.

Ultimately you and Acert may be right and I could very well be way off on my assumption that the change was made due to performance issues, but I hope they adjust the view of some of those cockpits because some of them look horrific. Or maybe it's just terrible quality youtube vids making them look worse than they truly are.

LOL!! Are you actually being serious??

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 6909 Days

True, you may be right deft. If they included both it could affect their release date and, as we all know, they are already cutting it pretty close as it is. There's no way they'll be able to please everyone, but I hope to see a return in some fashion of the original E3 cockpit view for the next Forza cause I have a fascination with amazing cars while at the same time not exactly being a big car fanatic (if that makes sense), and the original cockpit view excited me because it seemed like the closest I'd ever be able to get to being behind the wheel of any of these cars :)

Yea, the new view seems best for gameplay. Still would've liked to play the cockpit as it was at E3 though :( It just looks so cool being inside that cockpit as all the other cars are around or when you encounter bumps in the road etc.

This gif still blows me away.

And Jin yes I'm being serious. Some of the new cockpit views look like complete trash because they are pushed too far in and I definitely won't be holding my tongue on that. Better for gameplay? Sure, but look better than what we saw at E3? Hell no.

In reply to

True, you may be right deft. If they included both it could affect their release date and, as we all know, they are already cutting it pretty close as it is. There's no way they'll be able to please everyone, but I hope to see a return in some fashion of the original E3 cockpit view for the next Forza cause I have a fascination with amazing cars while at the same time not exactly being a big car fanatic (if that makes sense), and the original cockpit view excited me because it seemed like the closest I'd ever be able to get to being behind the wheel of any of these cars :)

Yea, the new view seems best for gameplay. Still would've liked to play the cockpit as it was at E3 though :( It just looks so cool being inside that cockpit as all the other cars are around or when you encounter bumps in the road etc.

[img]http://i43.tinypic.com/200u446.gif[/img]

This gif still blows me away.

And Jin yes I'm being serious. Some of the new cockpit views look like complete trash because they are pushed too far in and I definitely won't be holding my tongue on that. Better for gameplay? Sure, but look better than what we saw at E3? Hell no.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

Jin187

Since 6761 Days

@Optimus - I made this picture for you to prevent you from having a heart attack :)

Newer build at the top, E3 build at the bottom, now spot the difference....

Yes, they are exactly the same because nothing has changed. If you actually read what Che said, he was only referring to a change, just on the E3 version of the Audi R8.

Many interesting theories. The truth is that cockpit FOV is something that we've been tuning for all cars for the past... I dunno, a while now. The E3 Audi R8 perspective was one setting we moved away for playability reasons. Looked nice but ultimately was a waste of real estate. Moving the FOV forward had nothing to do with framerate.

So basically, two ridicuous pages of discussion for a minor change to just one car (For the right reasons) so can we please just move on?

In reply to

Jin187

Since 6761 Days

Just found probably the best video so far in terms of showing off its visuals...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADOLPNcF4uM&feature... (Watch it in HD!)

That LP640 looks incredible and there's some nice damage in there too!

In reply to

deftangel

Since 6885 Days

I did also read there are some shots that are taken under breaking, hence the camera has lurched forwards a bit further than it would normally be.

In any event, bumper cam for the win.

In reply to

XBL/PSN: deftangel. Views are my own and not representative of my employers. Boulets aren't the end of the world, you will get over them! Reading and constructive discussion classes are available, enquire via PM

GriftGFX

Since 7017 Days

Posted by deftangel

In any event, bumper cam for the win.

Srsly. A whole lot of fuss over something that will go mostly unused.

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 6909 Days

Haha, who was it that removed the gif of the cockpit view as shown when the game was first unveiled? Sneaky :)

Oh well, not really a big deal, and it's probably appropriate that it be removed and not seen. Prompted by the 2 pictures jin posted, which to be honest baffled the hell out of me, I realized that I've been getting excited -- and annoyed -- about something that practically never existed in the first place.

The cockpit view, during ACTUAL gameplay, (As in versions of Forza 3 people actually got the opportunity to play) has never looked like what Turn 10 initially showed off when they revealed the game at E3.

I ran through a number of other videos just to make absolute sure and still never came across such a thing. So, it would seem that, on the very basis for which I was making my argument (what was present in the removed gif and showcased when the game was unveiled), I truly was making a fuss over much ado about nothing. I'll admit that I didn't realize that until jin posted those 2 pics.

Guess I neglected to pay attention to the fact that such a cockpit view was purely just for show and never actually seemed intended for the game. Damn the cockpit in that gif looks so badass though :(

I could never get into the hoodcams myself. I always like to see the car. I guess that's why I'm not very good at racers lol.

In reply to

Haha, who was it that removed the gif of the cockpit view as shown when the game was first unveiled? Sneaky :)

Oh well, not really a big deal, and it's probably appropriate that it be removed and not seen. Prompted by the 2 pictures jin posted, which to be honest baffled the hell out of me, I realized that I've been getting excited -- and annoyed -- about something that practically never existed in the first place.

The cockpit view, during ACTUAL gameplay, (As in versions of Forza 3 people actually got the opportunity to play) has never looked like what Turn 10 initially showed off when they revealed the game at E3.

I ran through a number of other videos just to make absolute sure and still never came across such a thing. So, it would seem that, on the very basis for which I was making my argument (what was present in the removed gif and showcased when the game was unveiled), I truly was making a fuss over much ado about nothing. I'll admit that I didn't realize that until jin posted those 2 pics.

Guess I neglected to pay attention to the fact that such a cockpit view was purely just for show and never actually seemed intended for the game. Damn the cockpit in that gif looks so badass though :(

I could never get into the hoodcams myself. I always like to see the car. I guess that's why I'm not very good at racers lol.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

Jin187

Since 6761 Days

Posted by deftangel

In any event, bumper cam for the win.

Damn right!!!

In reply to

Inflatable

Since 7655 Days

Posted by Jin187

Just found probably the best video so far in terms of showing off its visuals...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADOLPNcF4uM&feature... (Watch it in HD!)

That LP640 looks incredible and there's some nice damage in there too!

The damage is still way to restricted imho.. Especially on simulation there should be way more damage when hitting a wall at that speed.. They should look at how damage was done in games like Burnout Paradise (see:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yII3QFP7Sj0), that's way more realisitic.. Imagine FM with a damagephysics-engine like Burnout Paradise, omg that would be so cool!!!

Probably has to do with carmanufactures not like to see their cars smashed up that way, which imho is just sad and stupid (it's just a game ffs!)..

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http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
http://home.xmsnet.nl/bigbear/mycar.jpg

CARB

Since 6570 Days

Posted by Optimusv2

I could never get into the hoodcams myself. I always like to see the car. I guess that's why I'm not very good at racers lol.

so there you go, youve been waffling on about a feature you wouldnt have used, on a game you are no good at....way to go...like grift, deft and jin says bumper cam ftw !

why would F3 be a day 1 purchase , if your no good at drining games ?????, especially if you play in "chase cam"

In reply to

i just dont give a fuck !

Inflatable

Since 7655 Days

I also always play with hood/bumpercam on.. It gives me the most realistic feeling like I was driving for real.. Plus I like to see what's going on behind me, and that view is usually the only one that has the rearview mirror (on top).. In car is nice but restricts the view to much..

I also agree rearcarview is arcady and unrealistic, and I'm also sure most serious racinggame fans don't use it (but hood/bumperview instead).. But offcourse it's cool to check out your own car(s), so it always has to be in there..

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http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
http://home.xmsnet.nl/bigbear/mycar.jpg

Optimusv2

Since 6909 Days

Posted by CARB

so there you go, youve been waffling on about a feature you wouldnt have used, on a game you are no good at....way to go...like grift, deft and jin says bumper cam ftw !

why would F3 be a day 1 purchase , if your no good at drining games ?????, especially if you play in "chase cam"

I'm not very good at a lot of games that I still play regardless because -- here it comes -- they're still really fun to play. Does that blow you away or what? Last I checked, how good you are at a game isn't necessarily a primary component to having fun with a game. There are many games where I have fun even while constantly losing. I'm more likely to become bored of a sport or racing oriented game that I can dominate.

My season record with the Celtics in NBA 2k9 at the All-Star difficulty level is 1-26 and that one win was all kinds of luck and yet I play that more than any other game right now. It seems like I should restart the season, but I still have faith that I'll finish strong enough to sneak into playoffs. I can't beat the pc in Fifa 09 either, but I love it as well. Guess I'm weird like that.

And maybe I should've been more clear as to what I mean when I say I "like to see the car". That also includes the interior of a car aka cockpit. Isn't what grift and deft are talking about the mode where you can't see any part of the car at all. I don't like that view, I like the views where you can actually see some part of the car, which also includes the cockpit. I wouldn't complain about an aspect of the game I didn't plan on using.

Also, I tend to be very modest about just how good I am at games so I wouldn't read too much into anything I say about how good or bad I am. I just tend to acknowledge when I know I'm not among the best at a certain kind of game, and racers are exactly that. And in fairness, the cpu in NBA 2K9 is pretty damn unbelievable. You slack for a second and you're screwed.

In reply to

[quote=CARB]

so there you go, youve been waffling on about a feature you wouldnt have used, on a game you are no good at....way to go...like grift, deft and jin says bumper cam ftw !

why would F3 be a day 1 purchase , if your no good at drining games ?????, especially if you play in "chase cam"[/quote]

I'm not very good at a lot of games that I still play regardless because -- here it comes -- they're still really fun to play. Does that blow you away or what? Last I checked, how good you are at a game isn't necessarily a primary component to having fun with a game. There are many games where I have fun even while constantly losing. I'm more likely to become bored of a sport or racing oriented game that I can dominate.

My season record with the Celtics in NBA 2k9 at the All-Star difficulty level is 1-26 and that one win was all kinds of luck and yet I play that more than any other game right now. It seems like I should restart the season, but I still have faith that I'll finish strong enough to sneak into playoffs. I can't beat the pc in Fifa 09 either, but I love it as well. Guess I'm weird like that.

And maybe I should've been more clear as to what I mean when I say I "like to see the car". That also includes the interior of a car aka cockpit. Isn't what grift and deft are talking about the mode where you can't see any part of the car at all. I don't like that view, I like the views where you can actually see some part of the car, which also includes the cockpit. I wouldn't complain about an aspect of the game I didn't plan on using.

Also, I tend to be very modest about just how good I am at games so I wouldn't read too much into anything I say about how good or bad I am. I just tend to acknowledge when I know I'm not among the best at a certain kind of game, and racers are exactly that. And in fairness, the cpu in NBA 2K9 is pretty damn unbelievable. You slack for a second and you're screwed.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

Acert93

Since 6988 Days

Posted by GriftGFX

Srsly. A whole lot of fuss over something that will go mostly unused.

While bumper came is FTW, I know a LOT of us, if the cockpit works, will FORCE it on for more difficult racing. Turning off the assists and placing racers in their cars ... FTW!

In reply to

Pwn'd by Phaethon360.

IRAIPT0IR

Since 5725 Days

Out of the car view FTW hell yeah baby!!!

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HUNTED BY HEAVEN....HATED BY HELL....DRIVEN BY VENGEANCE!

Freniger

Since 7033 Days

http://www.gamespot.com/sports/blogs/sports-blog/9...

New Q&A about Drag Racing in Forza 3, as well as some new screenies.

In reply to

Optimusv2

Since 6909 Days

Damn, some of those screens are incredible.

In reply to

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

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