Halo Reach

Since 6339 Days

*applauds*
*wolf whistles*
*collapses*

I think Optimus does have a point though. Halo has always been as much about content as it has the visual side of things - more so in fact. You look at the graphical quality of your Killzones and your CODs and it's like hey, fair enough. That's one good looking game you've got there. But until those games offer the same kind of content as the Halo series, comparing the two is not in the least bit logical.

In reply to

Ronsauce

Since 6993 Days

I'm not saying the 4-player split screen isn't an excuse. I'm saying I'd rather them leave it out IF it helps them achieve even better visuals considering I never play games split-screen. I also really don't think that 4-player co-op(not split screen) would have a huge effect on the visuals. Three extra characters and their weapon effects shouldn't result in a game's graphics needing to be toned down to accomodate them. BFBC2(a title that isn't obviously smaller, more limited or confined) wouldn't look so damn good if that was the case. As for the recording, I've said before that every game should have it, so I'd certainly be willing to sacrifice some eye candy for that feature.

I'm also not saying that I think it looks bad or that it will look bad. I thought Halo 3 looked pretty darn good with a few exceptions, and I'm sure while I'm playing Reach, I'll be more of a state of admiration than disappointement. Better models, animation, textures(which I've always thought were fucking great in Halo), lighting, effects, etc...etc.... However, I do understand that some people could be disappointed with what they've seen so far. Bungie's got the money and Halo is MS's flagship franchise. It almost seems weird that it's not the game to beat visually. That said, I do think a lot of the people who are pointing out the odd, poor textures or say things like "meh, not impressed" are probably closer to being Halo anti-fanboys than unbiased, objective observers offering up their takes on these images.

In reply to

I'm not saying the 4-player split screen isn't an excuse.  I'm saying I'd rather them leave it out IF it helps them achieve even better visuals considering I never play games split-screen.  I also really don't think that 4-player co-op(not split screen) would have a huge effect on the visuals.  Three extra characters and their weapon effects shouldn't result in a game's graphics needing to be toned down to accomodate them.  BFBC2(a title that [i]isn't[/i] obviously smaller, more limited or confined) wouldn't look so damn good if that was the case.  As for the recording, I've said before that every game should have it, so I'd certainly be willing to sacrifice some eye candy for that feature.

I'm also not saying that I think it looks bad or that it will look bad. I thought Halo 3 looked pretty darn good with a few exceptions, and I'm sure while I'm playing Reach, I'll be more of a state of admiration than disappointement. Better models, animation, textures(which I've always thought were fucking great in Halo), lighting, effects, etc...etc....   However, I do understand that some people could be disappointed with what they've seen so far.  Bungie's got the money and Halo is MS's flagship franchise. It almost seems weird that it's not the game to beat visually. That said, I do think a lot of the people who are pointing out the odd, poor textures or say things like "meh, not impressed" are probably closer to being Halo anti-fanboys than unbiased, objective observers offering up their takes on these images.

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

blmbox

Since 6339 Days

Well one thing's for sure: good or bad, Halo makes people talk. Always has done, always will do.

In reply to

GriftGFX

Since 7008 Days

My point was just that they make pretty tremendous sacrifices in splitscreen mode to make it work. Does the inclusion of such a feature have an impact on the performance of the solo game? Probably, but it's effect has been greatly exaggerated. The reason that Gears of War only supports two players in splitscreen isn't because four would be impossible, but because it would be impractical. They would have to make so many sacrifices (like dropping the resolution down to 480p!) that it would make the game look and run horribly. I'll certainly take features over eye candy, anyway, but as always I'm more concerned about performance. A great looking game that constantly drops below 30fps is not worth the resources it's expending.

In reply to

Nietzsche

Since 6361 Days

Posted by Ronsauce

That said, I do think a lot of the people who are pointing out the odd, poor textures or say things like "meh, not impressed" are probably closer to being Halo anti-fanboys than unbiased, objective observers offering up their takes on these images.

Maybe not all, but certainly those on here with a history of praising all the PS3 exclusives. It's funny how every one of them finds a reason to talk down halo and it's looks.

As for the battlefield comparsison, I would agree but Halo has much more complex AI patterns and enemies on screen in the single player, something BF doesn't bother with. As well as a ton of vehicles at one time while also having a ton of enemies running around in complex branching patterns.

But all that said, I still say Bungie dropped the ball by not building a new engine from scratch for Halo 3 or at least Halo Reach. Sure the game looks pretty good and they continue to improve it, but don't tell me that with all the money Bungie and MS have, they could afford to build a new engine for the 360. Hell, if anything MS could easily afford to hire Crytech to develop the new graphics engine while bungie worked on everything else...lol. j/k of course.

In reply to

[quote=Ronsauce]That said, I do think a lot of the people who are pointing out the odd, poor textures or say things like "meh, not impressed" are probably closer to being Halo anti-fanboys than unbiased, objective observers offering up their takes on these images.[/quote]

Maybe not all, but certainly those on here with a history of praising all the PS3 exclusives. It's funny how every one of them finds a reason to talk down halo and it's looks.

As for the battlefield comparsison, I would agree but Halo has much more complex AI patterns and enemies on screen in the single player, something BF doesn't bother with. As well as a ton of vehicles at one time while also having a ton of enemies running around in complex branching patterns.

But all that said, I still say Bungie dropped the ball by not building a new engine from scratch for Halo 3 or at least Halo Reach. Sure the game looks pretty good and they continue to improve it, but don't tell me that with all the money Bungie and MS have, they could afford to build a new engine for the 360. Hell, if anything MS could easily afford to hire Crytech to develop the new graphics engine while bungie worked on everything else...lol. j/k of course.

Optimusv2

Since 6900 Days

Posted by blmbox

Well one thing's for sure: good or bad, Halo makes people talk. Always has done, always will do.

That it does!

BFBC2 does 4 player split and 4 player co-op? I doubt it, but if so, I'm immensely impressed. Also, I believe it's about much more than just the extra characters and their weapon effects, it's more than likely also the resources necessary to accommodate the unexpected nature of those extra players being able to go about and do whatever inside the game world, outside of their more predictable AI counterparts. There is, I imagine, net code and a few other engine related things to think about as well, with regards to the consideration that there would now be 3 extra fully capable individuals who can just go around the SP game world blowing the living crap out of whichever aspect of the destructible environment as they see fit. All of that going on on a single machine in 4 player split with those visuals? Just thinking about it makes me break into a cold sweat :)

I'm amazed at what BFBC2 is able to accomplish in MP, it's truly astounding stuff, but then there are many more complexities involved in the SP than would be the case with MP, I imagine. Although, I fully acknowledge the impressiveness of BFBC2. They are easily one of the more technically accomplished developers out there and they are showing why exactly that is. In fact, I'm just going to stop talking about them and their game here and now in hopes of not being seen as belittling any of what they do. :)

Nonetheless, I think we're going to get some Reach info at Microsoft's X10 event next month.

Very well said, Grift. I agree. 4 player really wouldn't be practical in Gears, but then I have a strange feeling they may attempt exactly that in Gears 3, if we even get Gears 3 on the 360 and not the next MS system. I pray to god though that Reach doesn't have any serious performance related issues.

In reply to

[quote=blmbox]Well one thing's for sure: good or bad, Halo makes people talk. Always has done, always will do.[/quote]

That it does!

BFBC2 does 4 player split and 4 player co-op? I doubt it, but if so, I'm immensely impressed. Also, I believe it's about much more than just the extra characters and their weapon effects, it's more than likely also the resources necessary to accommodate the unexpected nature of those extra players being able to go about and do whatever inside the game world, outside of their more predictable AI counterparts. There is, I imagine, net code and a few other engine related things to think about as well, with regards to the consideration that there would now be 3 extra fully capable individuals who can just go around the SP game world blowing the living crap out of whichever aspect of the destructible environment as they see fit. All of that going on on a single machine in 4 player split with those visuals? Just thinking about it makes me break into a cold sweat :)

I'm amazed at what BFBC2 is able to accomplish in MP, it's truly astounding stuff, but then there are many more complexities involved in the SP than would be the case with MP, I imagine. Although, I fully acknowledge the impressiveness of BFBC2. They are easily one of the more technically accomplished developers out there and they are showing why exactly that is. In fact, I'm just going to stop talking about them and their game here and now in hopes of not being seen as belittling any of what they do. :)

Nonetheless, I think we're going to get some Reach info at Microsoft's X10 event next month.

Very well said, Grift. I agree. 4 player really wouldn't be practical in Gears, but then I have a strange feeling they may attempt exactly that in Gears 3, if we even get Gears 3 on the 360 and not the next MS system. I pray to god though that Reach doesn't have any serious performance related issues.

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

PlumbDrumb

Since 7002 Days

yeah, we're reading that.

In reply to

Ronsauce

Since 6993 Days

Also, I believe it's about much more than just the extra characters and their weapon effects, it's more than likely also the resources necessary to accommodate the unexpected nature of those extra players being able to go about and do whatever inside the game world, outside of their more predictable AI counterparts. There is, I imagine, net code and a few other engine related things to think about as well, with regards to the consideration that there would now be 3 extra fully capable individuals who can just go around the SP game world blowing the living crap out of whichever aspect of the destructible environment as they see fit. All of that going on on a single machine in 4 player split with those visuals? Just thinking about it makes me break into a cold sweat :)

That's why I brought up BFBC2. How many players will it be accommodating in a match? With far, FAR more in terms of destructible envrionments....environments which seem to be a lot more complexly detailed than what we've seen so far in Reach. Sure, there's the AI that needs to be run in SP, but will BF support bots?

Again, I'm not knocking Reach, I'm super fucking excited for it, but I don't think the inclusion of 4-player co-op or split-screen can be blamed for the game not looking better.

But that's just based on the screens we've seen. With the upgraded animation and lighting, when the game's in motion, it might just end up looking really damn impressive. I really hope it does.

In reply to

[quote]Also, I believe it's about much more than just the extra characters and their weapon effects, it's more than likely also the resources necessary to accommodate the unexpected nature of those extra players being able to go about and do whatever inside the game world, outside of their more predictable AI counterparts. There is, I imagine, net code and a few other engine related things to think about as well, with regards to the consideration that there would now be 3 extra fully capable individuals who can just go around the SP game world blowing the living crap out of whichever aspect of the destructible environment as they see fit. All of that going on on a single machine in 4 player split with those visuals? Just thinking about it makes me break into a cold sweat :)[/quote]

That's why I brought up BFBC2.  How many players will it be accommodating in a match?  With far, FAR more in terms of destructible envrionments....environments which seem to be a lot more complexly detailed than what we've seen so far in Reach. Sure, there's the AI that needs to be run in SP, but will BF support bots?

Again, I'm not knocking Reach, I'm super fucking excited for it, but I don't think the inclusion of 4-player co-op or split-screen can be blamed for the game not looking better.

But that's just based on the screens we've seen. With the upgraded animation and lighting, when the game's in motion, it might just end up looking really damn impressive. I really hope it does.

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

deftangel

Since 6876 Days

The engine still has to render 4 cameras simultaneously and then do the maths, culling etc to transpose them to a 2D image representing the perspective of each player. It's non-trivial, hence performance and quality often dips in split screen.

I don't want to overstate it's impact on the single player visuals but it's certainly something they have to bear in mind when they build the engine. Moreover, it's not a feature they are going to remove at this time because some people want it to look nicer.

Split screen gaming has it's place. I went to a friends and the four of us wanted to play Borderlands on two Xboxes via system link / LIVE. That we couldn't was rather frustrating.

In reply to

http://twitter.com/deftangel

Ronsauce

Since 6993 Days

Yeah...but I'm going with what Grift was talking about. There will be obvious deficits in splitscreen mode, but why should that have any kind of effect on the visuals while playing alone? Unless Bungie had to allocate a ton of resources into getting the split-screen to work... resources that could have been working on...I dunno...making the world look less barren.

In reply to

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

Viginti_Tres

Since 6510 Days

Posted by deftangel

Split screen gaming has it's place. I went to a friends and the four of us wanted to play Borderlands on two Xboxes via system link / LIVE. That we couldn't was rather frustrating.

I've done the same. We set everything up and then realised it wasn't possible. Halo, to this day, was the only console game where I've been able to do whatever I wanted with no limitations apart from the player count. That's worth a lot to me.

Also I imagine you have to build the whole game around coop. The teleporting doesn't happen for fun, it's a way for Bungie to ensure that the game doesn't go over a set amount of resources. Unless they do the work for the single player separately there is bound to be a lot of overhead. But they also said that teleporting won't be as strict in Reach as it was in Halo 3, so maybe they've worked around that problem.

In reply to

deftangel

Since 6876 Days

Posted by Ronsauce

Yeah...but I'm going with what Grift was talking about. There will be obvious deficits in splitscreen mode, but why should that have any kind of effect on the visuals while playing alone? Unless Bungie had to allocate a ton of resources into getting the split-screen to work... resources that could have been working on...I dunno...making the world look less barren.

Well the downgrades are largely generic in nature, i.e. lower resolution, choppier framerate, turn off these shaders etc etc. That's easy stuff to configure but only part of the problem. It would take a lot more effort to say, in split-screen use this geometry and these textures vs these super spruced up ones for single player.

Essentially you would be asking your artists then to make things twice and making HD art is where an awful lot of the costs go this gen.

It's a compromise, we've got this many people, this much time to make a game. Split-screen is important and they want it in from the start. They can't go and make something for a year and then find out they'll never be able to get it to run above 5fps in four player split screen. Hence, they have to be conservative.

In reply to

[quote=Ronsauce]Yeah...but I'm going with what Grift was talking about.  There will be obvious deficits [i]in splitscreen mode[/i], but why should that have any kind of effect on the visuals while playing alone?  Unless Bungie had to allocate a ton of resources into getting the split-screen to work...  resources that [i]could[/i] have been working on...I dunno...making the world look less barren.[/quote]

Well the downgrades are largely generic in nature, i.e. lower resolution, choppier framerate, turn off these shaders etc etc. That's easy stuff to configure but only part of the problem. It would take a lot more effort to say, in split-screen use this geometry and these textures vs these super spruced up ones for single player.

Essentially you would be asking your artists then to make things twice and making HD art is where an awful lot of the costs go this gen.

It's a compromise, we've got this many people, this much time to make a game. Split-screen is important and they want it in from the start. They can't go and make something for a year and then find out they'll never be able to get it to run above 5fps in four player split screen. Hence, they have to be conservative.

http://twitter.com/deftangel

Optimusv2

Since 6900 Days

Posted by Ronsauce

Yeah...but I'm going with what Grift was talking about. There will be obvious deficits in splitscreen mode, but why should that have any kind of effect on the visuals while playing alone? Unless Bungie had to allocate a ton of resources into getting the split-screen to work... resources that could have been working on...I dunno...making the world look less barren.

Well, from listening to Bungie's latest podcast, they specifically mention taking criticism for the barren nature of the screenshots and even joked about finding it funny that, whoever took the screenshots at the time, actually thinking that this or that screen was representative of a good screenshot. They also mention that decorators, things to make the environment look less empty or barren, they believed, the first set, were just now getting placed into the game.

I believe they did the podcast on the exact same day that EBGames leaked their screenshots. I guess people can take that however they decide, but that is what Bungie said.

It's a compromise, we've got this many people, this much time to make a game. Split-screen is important and they want it in from the start. They can't go and make something for a year and then find out they'll never be able to get it to run above 5fps in four player split screen. Hence, they have to be conservative.

I think you nailed it with this deft. They need this thing to still run at 30fps for all 4 people, there's no choice, but to to play it more conservative than some other devs.

In reply to

[quote=Ronsauce]Yeah...but I'm going with what Grift was talking about.  There will be obvious deficits [i]in splitscreen mode[/i], but why should that have any kind of effect on the visuals while playing alone?  Unless Bungie had to allocate a ton of resources into getting the split-screen to work...  resources that [i]could[/i] have been working on...I dunno...making the world look less barren.[/quote]

Well, from listening to Bungie's latest podcast, they specifically mention taking criticism for the barren nature of the screenshots and even joked about finding it funny that, whoever took the screenshots at the time, actually thinking that this or that screen was representative of a good screenshot. They also mention that decorators, things to make the environment look less empty or barren, they believed, the first set, were just now getting placed into the game.

I believe they did the podcast on the exact same day that EBGames leaked their screenshots. I guess people can take that however they decide, but that is what Bungie said.

[quote]It's a compromise, we've got this many people, this much time to make a game. Split-screen is important and they want it in from the start. They can't go and make something for a year and then find out they'll never be able to get it to run above 5fps in four player split screen. Hence, they have to be conservative.[/quote]

I think you nailed it with this deft. They need this thing to still run at 30fps for all 4 people, there's no choice, but to to play it more conservative than some other devs.

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

Nietzsche

Since 6361 Days

Interesting info. Just goes to show how little the average gamer understands the complexities of game development. I'm sure if and when Devs read game forums, they just sit back and shake their heads at the ignorance that is always being used to attack their games.

That being said, there is always the other side of the coin where the devs come up with BS excuses to defend their product.

It does explain why they aren't being more aggressive in the graphical department. But is 4 player split-screen really that big of a deal in the age of online play? I didn't realize so many people still used split screen.

In reply to

Viginti_Tres

Since 6510 Days

Posted by Optimusv2

They also mention that decorators, things to make the environment look less empty or barren, they believed, the first set, were just now getting placed into the game.

I've been saying it over and over again. The way it looks on the screen shots is not how it's gonna ship. I've followed Bungie a lot before the days of Halo 3 and decorators and nice little touches that make the environment feel more natural were added in the last stages of polish (just a few weeks before the game went gold). I don't expect them to change the way they work, and I expect the empty places on the screens to look lively once Reach plays on your TV.

In reply to

Ronsauce

Since 6993 Days

Posted by Nietzsche

It does explain why they aren't being more aggressive in the graphical department. But is 4 player split-screen really that big of a deal in the age of online play? I didn't realize so many people still used split screen.

Neither did I. I don't know a single person who uses it. I'm willing to bet there are more people who'd prefer Reach be mind-blowing graphically instead of getting to play on a small chunk of their tv with some friends.

Posted by Optimusv2

Well, from listening to Bungie's latest podcast, they specifically mention taking criticism for the barren nature of the screenshots and even joked about finding it funny that, whoever took the screenshots at the time, actually thinking that this or that screen was representative of a good screenshot. They also mention that decorators, things to make the environment look less empty or barren, they believed, the first set, were just now getting placed into the game.

I really, REALLY hope that's the case, but I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's just a case of I'll believe it when I see it.

Posted by Nietzsche

Interesting info. Just goes to show how little the average gamer understands the complexities of game development. I'm sure if and when Devs read game forums, they just sit back and shake their heads at the ignorance that is always being used to attack their games. .

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I'd hardly say I've been attacking Bungie's game.

In reply to

[quote=Nietzsche]It does explain why they aren't being more aggressive in the graphical department. But is 4 player split-screen really that big of a deal in the age of online play?  I didn't realize so many people still used split screen.[/quote]

Neither did I.  I don't know a single person who uses it.  I'm willing to bet there are more people who'd prefer Reach be mind-blowing graphically instead of getting to play on a small chunk of their tv with some friends.

[quote=Optimusv2]Well, from listening to Bungie's latest podcast, they specifically mention taking criticism for the barren nature of the screenshots and even joked about finding it funny that, whoever took the screenshots at the time, actually thinking that this or that screen was representative of a good screenshot. They also mention that decorators, things to make the environment look less empty or barren, they believed, the first set, were just now getting placed into the game.[/quote]

I really, REALLY hope that's the case, but I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt.  It's just a case of I'll believe it when I see it.

[quote=Nietzsche]Interesting info. Just goes to show how little the average gamer understands the complexities of game development. I'm sure if and when Devs read game forums, they just sit back and shake their heads at the ignorance that is always being used to attack their games. .[/quote]

I hope that wasn't directed at me.  I'd hardly say I've been attacking Bungie's game.

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

Nietzsche

Since 6361 Days

@Ronsauce
it wasn't directed at anyone, just the overall trend of how much people attack exclusives for their graphics etc and how it seems to be getting worse and worse each generation.

There is a difference between wanting a game to look better and just attacking it b/c you hate the franchise or the system it's on. I never got the impression you were one of the latter.

In reply to

Ronsauce

Since 6993 Days

Posted by Nietzsche

I never got the impression you were one of the latter.

lol...I'd hope not...being that I'm a pretty staunch 360 and Halo fan.

In reply to

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

Optimusv2

Since 6900 Days

Yea, nothing wrong with that at all Ron. Bungie says that they want to show the beauty of Reach's environments in all its glory before it gets destroyed later, and are treating Reach as its own character as well, so I guess we'll see about that when we get some footage.

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

Optimusv2

Since 6900 Days

Gameinformer has a podcast on Reach up. They don't seem remotely excited about the game at all lol, at least to me anyway. Not that their opinion matters to me, but I was hoping to get some decent convo on the game since these people saw it in action. No such luck, however.

http://gameinformer.com/b/podcasts/archive/2010/01...

You can tell they aren't big fans of the franchise. They also believe that Master Chief is actually on the ground on Reach, when he isn't at all. He's up in space above Reach involved in a mission to recover the navigation unit from a destroyed UNSC ship.

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

Optimusv2

Since 6900 Days

In reply to

Halo Reach using 360 tesselation unit extensively.

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of th

Frozpot

Since 6766 Days

Thats crazy- they almost look illustrated...

In reply to

Oooh, Profound, isn't it?

Ronsauce

Since 6993 Days

Looks good. I'm not a huge fan of how the skin looks on the grunt, but it won't be a big deal while playing.

In reply to

Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate.

Schmooboo

Since 6564 Days

Looks good, they seem to wanna make the convenant units look more "scary", grunts were usually the canon fodder with a sense of humour...hope they didnt change that

EDIT: i wonder if we will be able to fly in the gunship and gun down ground troops with the side guns GRAW style

In reply to

When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.

szaromir

Since 6764 Days

Posted by Schmooboo

EDIT: i wonder if we will be able to fly in the gunship and gun down ground troops with the side guns GRAW style

Dear God, please not. Worst idea ever.

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