NBA 2K7 PS3 more advanced than 360 version

lukasblue
lukasblue
Inscrit depuis 6751 Jours
RSX - 2xMSAA > 4 Gpixel/sec
This would hold if fillrate sans aa would be around 7.6 or so (on level of nvidia78000) which is not; i think fillrate is lower for both 2aa and 4aa on rsx; that is why they are doing all that on cell (and 360 on edram logic).
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LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Inscrit depuis 7126 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
It would probably be noticeable in animation, the Cell is better suited to doing animation than the 360 CPU so i would imagine you would get a more fluid animation process (because of the nature of floating point processing) which would probably transfer to better frame rate. << pure speculation
Well, NBA 2K7 has some unblievable animations. There are some problems here and there with players sliding, but the animations can't get much better than what they are really. They are extremely fluid and realistic.

Again, the only problem is that players slide too much at times. For example, they take a step back but they are moving a couple of meters. That's the only area they could improve in terms of animations or of course, add more animations.
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http://www.lebato.blogspot.com--UPDATE: Blog Failed.....

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
The end result is RSX gets a theoretical limit of 52.8 GB/sec and Xenos gets 256 GB/sec.
WHAT ??

Come on !!

The 32 GB/sec would cause a bottleneck, sure it's safe to say that every 32 GB/sec transfered becomes free from restrictions but there is only so much that can be done on the Edram (perhaps in future dev's may find new ways of doing things with the Edram, we can only hope)

But saying that it's 52 GB/sec vs 256 GB/sec is being very naive.
En réponse à

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Inscrit depuis 6975 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
The end result is RSX gets a theoretical limit of 52.8 GB/sec and Xenos gets 256 GB/sec.
WHAT ??

Come on !!
You are right, RSX is actually limited to more in the range of peak:

GDDR3 Read/Write: 20.8GB/s
R Read/Write: 15.5GB/s (read) / 10.6GB/s (write)

So RSX is actually lower than what Has is saying. And this doesn't even begin to account for the penalty of using R for texturing or inability to use it for framebuffers (i.e. pretty much limited to texturing, with penalty, or storage).
The 32 GB/sec would cause a bottleneck, sure it's safe to say that every 32 GB/sec transfered becomes free from restrictions but there is only so much that can be done on the Edram (perhaps in future dev's may find new ways of doing things with the Edram, we can only hope)
Oh where to start... I know I have explained this before, so I will be brief and you can go back to ignoring it: The split in the dies is intentional based on performance needs. There is a natural break between the ROPs and the Logic.

The 32GB/s Parent Die <=> Daughter connection was designed to meet the peak needs of communications between the Logic and ROPs. An exce is MRT, where you would output form the ROPs to system memory and then re-use the render target. Of course in this situation you have 32GB/s to transfer such (60% more bandwidth than RSX has for such) -- and you still haven't touched the 256GB/s of eDRAM bandwidth for fillrate (MSAA, Z, Alpha, Color).

Yes, there is "only" so much that can be done in eDRAM... like draw your image? It isn't a general memory pool, but it is a design choice: your framebuffers are your largest bandwidth client (hence 256GB/s of bandwidth). There is a reason that RSX has a fillrate of ~2GSamples with 4xMSAA and Xenos has a fillrate of 16GSamples. Could it be that RSX is incapable of supporting the fillrate (hint: the GDDR3 doesn't have enough bandwidth in the PS3 to support peak fillrate on RSX, let alone peak fillrate + texturing and everything else).
But saying that it's 52 GB/sec vs 256 GB/sec is being very naive.
Yes, it is naive because while it is well known that the 256GB/s in the 360 is limited to framebuffers, people keep pretending like RSX bandwidth is all merry when in fact R has significant gotchas in performance and accessiblity and GDDR3 prevents RSX from hitting peak performance rates.
It would probably be noticeable in animation, the Cell is better suited to doing animation than the 360 CPU so i would imagine you would get a more fluid animation process (because of the nature of floating point processing) which would probably transfer to better frame rate. << pure speculation
Is animation a float limited problem or maybe a branch limited problem? Is it something that can be done through a 128KB local store or is it better suited for cache?

Not that it matters: Every developer I have talked to says animation is an *artist* limited problem. And not every problem is equal in regards to hardware. A solution on one platform is not good on another. e.g. Cloth animation and Inverse Kinematics may not have proportional solutions.
Posté par Jolli
So Acert93, ask me a question for once!
Ok, answer me this (seeing as my post, last on page, in the other thread was severely ignored):

How does a Radeon X1600 outperform an GF 7900 in Parallax Occlusion Mapping? (POM, sometimes called virtual displacement mapping, is a common 'next gen' effect that gives a pronounced impression of geometry from many angles; Kameo uses this a bit and Motorstorm uses it for the mud deformation).


Ps- as I have mentioned before, both consoles have strengths and weaknesses, and will each have technical game designs that really show them off. But the "RSX 2x the shader ops / Cell 2x Float" stuff is really misleading and am surprised people still buy into it. NV30 was theoretically superior to R300 in a number of checkboxes and peaks, but in performant features we all know that all the PR hype checkbox-PR numbers got cut down by a finer look at what they actually MEANT for the architecture in said environments... oh well.

RSX has some strengths, as I have mentioned before. It has 50% more peak texture fillrate (although the dependancy upon Pixel Shader ALUs skus a direct comparison to Xenos which has decoupled TMUs). It is a more traditional design which should allow PC porting quite easily on the renderer side. It is also easier to troubleshoot at this time because of the discreet PS/VS. You have solid numbers of shader execution times whereas with Xenos devs are currently limited to shader resource needs (i.e. the threaded nature of Xenos has concerete ALU resource, like RSX, but since it is much more threaded the total execution time is not available, at least not yet). NV has done a lot of work with OpenGL and the TWIWMTBP program from NV has broad support in the PC industry. The lack of eDRAM also means no messing around with tiling, and a single pool of 256MB GDDR3 dedicated to the GPU allows some flexibility within the bandwidth budget (Xenos has to share the 512MB GDDR3 pool). RSX also has good branching in Vertex Shaders. Overall RSX is an excellent SM2.0 GPU with SM3.0 features available (albeit core SM3.0 features like dynamic branching in Pixel Shaders and Vertex Texturing are very poor, which is not surprising since RSX is based on the NV40 family).
En réponse à

Optimusv2 said: "Gun for the 360 has better graphics than both Halo 3 and Gears of War"

omegamaximus
omegamaximus
Inscrit depuis 6623 Jours
Posté par Optimusv2
Wow hasan who was the guy that wrote that up?
looks like the work of gamemaster off xbox365 forums.
En réponse à
Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Yes, it is naive because while it is well known that the 256GB/s in the 360 is limited to framebuffers, people keep pretending like RSX bandwidth is all merry when in fact R has significant gotchas in performance and accessiblity and GDDR3 prevents RSX from hitting peak performance rates.
So you say Acert yet people around here still throw the 256 GB/sec around as if it's the real bandwidth of the whole GPU.

I'm not downplaying yout beloved Xenos here, i'm just trying to be realistic, if the PS3 suffers so badly from bandwidth problems why are we not seeing the results of this from TGS, why are all the journalist who covered TGS saying that the PS3 footage looked smoother and superior to the 360's. (and in reality it's not just shane from EGM who has been saying this)

If the RSX has such bad badwidth problems how can games like Virtua Tennis, Liar, RR7 and so on run at 1080p ?
En réponse à

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

BugzzBunny
Inscrit depuis 6790 Jours
Mr. Huddy said that Xbox 360 game console, which sports developed by ATI Xenos graphics core with unified shader architecture and 48 shader processors, loses 20% to 25% performance in pixel-shader limited games, when its graphics chip is configured as non-unified, e.g.,16 processors work strictly on vertex shaders, whereas 32 are assigned for pixel shaders
Well isn´t the whole idea with unified shader architecture to shaders dynamicly to what they are needed? If they would do it right i would just guess that its more than that the other way around
En réponse à
hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Inscrit depuis 7020 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
Yes, it is naive because while it is well known that the 256GB/s in the 360 is limited to framebuffers, people keep pretending like RSX bandwidth is all merry when in fact R has significant gotchas in performance and accessiblity and GDDR3 prevents RSX from hitting peak performance rates.
So you say Acert yet people around here still throw the 256 GB/sec around as if it's the real bandwidth of the whole GPU.

I'm not downplaying yout beloved Xenos here, i'm just trying to be realistic, if the PS3 suffers so badly from bandwidth problems why are we not seeing the results of this from TGS, why are all the journalist who covered TGS saying that the PS3 footage looked smoother and superior to the 360's. (and in reality it's not just shane from EGM who has been saying this)

If the RSX has such bad badwidth problems how can games like Virtua Tennis, Liar, RR7 and so on run at 1080p ?
WHAT?

Virtua Tennis is a port of a Nvidia 6800 Running on the arcade at a 1360x resolution (higher than 720p)

Lair doesnt have any sort of good textures compared to any of the the other games

RR7 is a straight up port of RR6, a game that could easily run on last generation GPUs

please provide better examples

One would be Motostorm. Whats the best looking game at its resolution
En réponse à

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Keep telling yourself that Hasan.

My point was (considering as we were talking about bandwidth) they are games which are running at 1080p/60 show me a 360 game which is running at 1080p and at 60 fps.

What you consider to look good or not is besides the point.

***I'd also just like to say that i don't believe that many games will run at 1080p, before you try and bait me into an arguement about that***

I have said loads of times that 360 games and PS3 will look basically the same in terms of visuals quailty, you don't believe this to be the case, but i can't see why not.

There has been no evidence to suggest that the 360 will be superior in any way to the PS3 or vice versa.

I just find it sad that every post you make is in some way trying to discredit the PS3.
En réponse à

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Inscrit depuis 7020 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
Keep telling yourself that Hasan.

My point was (considering as we were talking about bandwidth) they are games which are running at 1080p/60 show me a 360 game which is running at 1080p and at 60 fps.
Microsoft just implemented 1080p after the start of these games which were aimed at 720p, its not like 1080p was from launch. ur being extremely trollish on this issue

btw RR6 was running at 720p on 360 (supported launch resolution) at 60fps, a port
Lair was running at 1080p with worse textures than a year away MGS4 running at 20-30 fps
Virtua tennis was already running at 60 fps at 1360x arcade resolution on an Nvidia 6800, a GPU from 2004

Use your brain Jolli, it will do wonders
En réponse à

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Use my brain, what you want me to believe what you have to say ?

Yes because we know how unbias you are.
En réponse à

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Inscrit depuis 7020 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
Use my brain, what you want me to believe what you have to say ?

Yes because we know how unbias you are.
prove the above post wrong. if i was biased I wouldnt have posted this topic here.
En réponse à

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Inscrit depuis 6896 Jours
Jolli people can say what they want, but nothing sony showed at TGS was superior to anything on the 360 and I'm being honest. If there was something I would've come out and flat out admit it. I thought white knight story was it, but turns out that was a target video.

We have eyes we've seen it. We've see the worst of what the 360 can do we've seen the best it has achieved thus far. Lair doesn't look good at all @ 1080p, Virtua Tennis is a port as Hasan said, Ridge Racer 7... lets be serious they could get ridge racer 6 or 7 to run on the 360 at 1080p no problems whatsoever and ridge racer 7 wasn't impressive graphically either. You know what I think those journalist are all doing? They are giving Sony the nod SIMPLY because there were playable games at 1080p ignore the fact that majority of them looked like crap or clearly underperformed.

As I've said before 1080p is by far the worst thing to happen to the game industry.

Jolli we all know the 360 is capable of running 1080p games at 60fps. Again we are back to this other point are people giving the ps3 the nod because these games look impressive or just because they are at 1080p? Only Virtua Tennis looks decent to me.
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If you're one of the millions of people without a Blue Dragon...put this as your avatar. Please, you can fight the good fight for BD.

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Prevent BDD - Blue Dragon Dysfunction

Blue Dragon Blue Dragon 青い

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Posté par hasanahmad
prove the above post wrong. if i was biased I wouldnt have posted this topic here.
Hasan you posted this article here and then went on to belittle it.
Jolli people can say what they want, but nothing sony showed at TGS was superior to anything on the 360 and I'm being honest. If there was something I would've come out and flat out admit it. I thought white knight story was it, but turns out that was a target video.
I have said it before but if you don't see it in person running on a HDTV (you have said this about games in the past you can't judge it until it's running on your 360, ring any bells ?) then you can't make a valid arguement on how impressive it looked.
You know what I think those journalist are all doing? They are giving Sony the nod SIMPLY because there were playable games at 1080p ignore the fact that majority of them looked like crap or clearly underperformed.
LOL they are journalist it is their job to pick holes and critisize, if the games under preformed and disappointed don't you think they would have said that, they have an obligation to their readers to be truthful.
Jolli we all know the 360 is capable of running 1080p games at 60fps.
Do we ? I will believe it when i see it, I have no doubt that MS will get future versions of the 360 to run in true 1080p, but im still curious if my current 360 will be able to do so.
En réponse à

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

hasanahmad
hasanahmad
Inscrit depuis 7020 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
Hasan you posted this article here and then went on to belittle it.
prove the above post wrong Jolli
En réponse à

Burn em' at the stake!!!

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Posté par hasanahmad
prove the above post wrong Jolli
Yea like im guna waste any more time on this petty little arguement, have a nice day !
En réponse à

I want Blue Dragon more than Optimus .... mwah ha ha ha ha ha..

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Inscrit depuis 6896 Jours
""LOL they are journalist it is their job to pick holes and critisize, if the games under preformed and disappointed don't you think they would have said that, they have an obligation to their readers to be truthful .""

I don't think I need to inform you of how many bias and lying "journalists" there are out there.

Jolli are you serious? You believe the current 360 isn't capable of 1080p at 60fps? What do you think they'll do a cpu or video card upgrade in the future or something to make it possible? I'm still in shock you'd believe the current 360s wouldn't be capable of it. I think you already know the 360 can do it, but are doing that stubborn "until I see it" on purpose knowing full well it'll happen, but just hasn't happened yet.. and to be completely honest jolli sony are sacrificing the quality of their titles for 1080p and to me that doesn't make them better than Microsoft at all. I personally wouldn't mind never see a 360 1080p title, but I know I will. ANY console with the power of these consoles can run games at 1080p 60fps its as simple as making sacrifices.. it isn't rocket science.

Yes I've said before we need to see it running on our tvs to be sure, but jolli I've seen the same camcorder videos of 360 titles that I've seen of ps3 titles and thus far there isn't one that beats Gears of War, blue dragon, mass effect or lost odyssey nor has there been any that have remotely shown anything that can't be done on a 360. Also jolli let me ask one question do you believe honestly that sony has shown a single ps3 title that isn't also possible on the 360? The videos blim captures are of very nice quality I know it'll look better running in front of us, but the fact still remains its enough to get a jist of what we are dealing with graphically.
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If you're one of the millions of people without a Blue Dragon...put this as your avatar. Please, you can fight the good fight for BD.

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Prevent BDD - Blue Dragon Dysfunction

Blue Dragon Blue Dragon 青い

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Inscrit depuis 6975 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
Yes, it is naive because while it is well known that the 256GB/s in the 360 is limited to framebuffers, people keep pretending like RSX bandwidth is all merry when in fact R has significant gotchas in performance and accessiblity and GDDR3 prevents RSX from hitting peak performance rates.
So you say Acert yet people around here still throw the 256 GB/sec around as if it's the real bandwidth of the whole GPU.
Show me a quote.

What I see is "theoretical limit" within the context specifically of "pixel rendering to memory" i.e. graphics related bandwidth. You jumped up and down about Xenos number, when it is a peak [real] graphical limit for the framebuffers, yet never a peep about the other side.

Just as easy to say, "So you say Jolli yet people around here still throw the ~50GB/sec around as if it's the real bandwidth of the whole RSX GPU".

You cannot have it both ways.
I'm not downplaying yout beloved Xenos here
? Strike 2. First was calling others niave, now this.

Look, we already know that you have a decided preference based on PR (shops, gflops with disregard for architecture, little consideration of featureset, and so forth).

But if you keep posting "one-up" style comments, and I take the time to respond and your effort in reply is insinuitory and inflammitory replys then you will take a vacation. Either stick on topic without name calling (which you have been banned for before) or stop posting.
i'm just trying to be realistic, if the PS3 suffers so badly from bandwidth problems why are we not seeing the results of this from TGS
Did you see Lair? Supposedly the past close up shot was Realtime AND the thousands of high detailed dynamic shadowed dragons on screen vid was also realtime. Yet the finished result using the same art looks HORRIBLE.

Did you see MGS4? The shadowing/lighting was poor and the texturing is very low quality.

Did you see Motorstorm? Like GT:HD, which cut down many of the particle effects from the PS2, is lacking a significant amount of particle effects.

Anyhow, you are framing the issue as a "right now" question instead of "is there an issue, and will it become more pronounced as games evolve graphically?" There is a reason why 7900/X1900 class GPUs have 50GB/s of framebuffer bandwidth. And even then GPU tests show they still can become memory limited.
why are all the journalist who covered TGS saying that the PS3 footage looked smoother and superior to the 360's. (and in reality it's not just shane from EGM who has been saying this)
O'Realy?

I have read more than 1 account about Gears of War being the absolutely best looking game graphically coming out in 2006 and arguably 2007.

I don't even need to begin touching Bioshock, Mass Effect, and so forth (games again flooring people and big winners at E3).

You say you are trying to be "realistic" -- from everything I have read, realistic is: Both consoles have some great looking titles.
If the RSX has such bad badwidth problems how can games like Virtua Tennis, Liar, RR7 and so on run at 1080p ?
VT3 runs at 13x7 on a 6800GS. Hitting 1080p with a GPU that in averages games is ~2x faster is not a surprise--especially with Sega's world renowned AM2 working on it. Lair... not a graphical benchmark. RR7 is fairly straight forward, ran fine on the 360 so extra dev time isn't surprising to get great results.

Anyhow, your question is like me asking how MotoGP can do what it can at 1280x1024 with MSAA.

Btw, And you STILL refuse to answer my question about POM on G70 vs. the X1600. I answer a lot of your questions.

Maybe you will go back 10 months and answer my question how 78B shader ops is a metric of performance (when PS3 devs say it isn't) and yet 2x the shops produces nearly identical Floats?
En réponse à

Optimusv2 said: "Gun for the 360 has better graphics than both Halo 3 and Gears of War"

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Inscrit depuis 6896 Jours
Gun is still next gen's graphical benchmark =P
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If you're one of the millions of people without a Blue Dragon...put this as your avatar. Please, you can fight the good fight for BD.

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Prevent BDD - Blue Dragon Dysfunction

Blue Dragon Blue Dragon 青い

Shawnzee
Shawnzee
Inscrit depuis 7016 Jours
All I can say is, atleast I dont hide my fanboyism.

Edit: Another thing, Im actually understanding Acerts posts now:O
En réponse à

Games sure are fun.

n3ro
n3ro
Inscrit depuis 6700 Jours
I'm just suprised that a PS3-fanboy wrote this thread :S
En réponse à

XBOX 360 FOREVER !

Shawnzee
Shawnzee
Inscrit depuis 7016 Jours
Posté par n3ro
I'm just suprised that a PS3-fanboy wrote this thread :S
Hasan? You kidding?
En réponse à

Games sure are fun.

lukasblue
lukasblue
Inscrit depuis 6751 Jours
Posté par n3ro
I'm just suprised that a PS3-fanboy wrote this thread :S
Best line ever.
En réponse à

hd-dvd games hd-dvd games hd-dvd games

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Inscrit depuis 6896 Jours
Hasan a ps3 fanboy? Far from it lol if anything I'd say hasan was more pro-360 than pro-ps3 and of course there's nothing wrong with that everyone has their preferences.

I for instance prefer the 360 over the ps3 even though I'll own both.
En réponse à

If you're one of the millions of people without a Blue Dragon...put this as your avatar. Please, you can fight the good fight for BD.

http://www.tourfilms.com/bd22.gif

Prevent BDD - Blue Dragon Dysfunction

Blue Dragon Blue Dragon 青い

Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Inscrit depuis 6896 Jours
Wait a minute doesn't xenos do a 16 gigasamples per second with 4XMSAA while tiling?

Hasan's post confused me as it said with tiling and 4XMSAAAA its 4 billion (as opposed to 16 billion I thought it was can someone clarify that for me?)
En réponse à

If you're one of the millions of people without a Blue Dragon...put this as your avatar. Please, you can fight the good fight for BD.

http://www.tourfilms.com/bd22.gif

Prevent BDD - Blue Dragon Dysfunction

Blue Dragon Blue Dragon 青い

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