Phaethon360 - Mr Pant<s>s</s>ies
Phaethon360
Since 6861 Days
I'm going to tear a page right out of the Book of Optimus and say: Wow, that reminds me of the CG Forza 2 trailer. Looks amazing. I can't believe the Xbox 360 is capable of these things :D!

How was that?
In reply to

Solve this Halo 3 riddle: 7002 ɥʇ52 ɹǝqɯǝʇdǝs ǝʇɐp ǝsɐǝ1ǝɹ 3 o1ɐɥ

LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Since 7138 Days
Posted by Phaethon360
I'm going to tear a page right out of the Book of Optimus and say: Wow, that reminds me of the CG Forza 2 trailer. Looks amazing. I can't believe the Xbox 360 is capable of these things :D!

How was that?
Wow, very good. Pretty much spot on.
In reply to
CockKnocker
CockKnocker
Since 6961 Days
this looks better than all the MotoGP games, and even the one thats not out yet.
In reply to
Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 6908 Days
Posted by LEBATO
Wow, very good. Pretty much spot on.
Yea and I'm going to tear a page out of the book of Lebato and say.

Honestly I don't see whats so impressive about this you'd think with this much time the developers would learn to get more out of the Xbox 360, but apparently I was wrong. First time around the excuse was that they were rushing for launch and didn't have enough time to change code so whats the excuse now? It looks pretty much exactly like PGR3 only with weather added to the game and some motorcycles and don't even get me started on these so called "screenshots" these are the same kind of bullshots we were fed before the release of PGR3.

Also why is the game running at 30fps? I thought they said the next PGR would be faster? Wasn't PGR3 30fps?

What the hell is this?

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/183/revi...

Is this a next gen game or current gen because I can't tell the difference. Bad textures horrible looking trees and most of the other shots are obviously fake or photomode. lets see how much blur we can add to hide imperfections. What is up with the rims in this shot?

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/183/revi...

Why aren't the tire textures better in this shot?

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/183/revi...

Its not like the game is running at 60fps.. its running at just 30 and we can't get better textures than this? Embarassing toca on the pc looks better

How was that? Did I sound like a constantly whining girl?
In reply to

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

October 20th 2007 (A good day)

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

Phaethon360 - Mr Pant<s>s</s>ies
Phaethon360
Since 6861 Days
Posted by Optimusv2
How was that? Did I sound like a constantly whining girl?
*Puts on the Heretic Cloak*

hahahaha LEBATOwned.
In reply to

Solve this Halo 3 riddle: 7002 ɥʇ52 ɹǝqɯǝʇdǝs ǝʇɐp ǝsɐǝ1ǝɹ 3 o1ɐɥ

GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!
GriftGFX
Since 7016 Days
Posted by Phaethon360
*Puts on the Heretic Cloak*

hahahaha LEBATOwned.
True, but your impression could have been better -- you could have picked something less impressive to praise highly ;)

Now can we please pretend to be nice?
In reply to
LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Since 7138 Days
Posted by Optimusv2
Yea and I'm going to tear a page out of the book of Lebato .......
Problem is I don't have a book and already said what I thought of the shots :(
In reply to
Optimusv2
Optimusv2
Since 6908 Days
Posted by LEBATO
Problem is I don't have a book and already said what I thought of the shots :(
I wasn't actually being serious which I'm sure ya know :)
In reply to

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

October 20th 2007 (A good day)

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 6987 Days
This message is in "Boulet Time" (TM), If you still *really* want to see it, click here
Posted by Optimusv2
Also why is the game running at 30fps? I thought they said the next PGR would be faster?
Quote from BC? All I have read that they ever said is that they did not take 60fps off the table from PGR3 during development and given time thought they would hit it.

If they said it, fine. But at least give them the proper Turn10 treatment and quote them directly.
I wasn't actually being serious which I'm sure ya know :)
Some of the shots, as well as points in your mocking, aren't totally invalid though. Some average pictures in there, for sure, but the cream of the crop... wow. Absiolutely ahead of the class at this point... with 5 months of polish :P (But don't expect it to look significantly better in 5 months).

















Like I said before, I will wait for confirmation that these are actually ingame and not photomode bullshots (the MSAA levels as well as DOF indicate that some are).

That said, it is is notable that their HDR technique isn't all bloomy -- or introduce a billion jaggies. Reflections are also well balanced. The bikes have a very solid feel from, what appears, to be liberal use of AO maps (I like the effect they are doing a lot). Their material system looks very good (e.g. the shot with 3 bikes in the inverted trail camera with dead trees, the bike on the left shows very distinct shader properties for the front brassy shock absorber, plastic frame, wheels, and helmet). Did I mention the graphics don't look butchered from abusive HDR/Bloom? The geometry is very high, texture detail is good as well as shaders, the water looks good in the new shot as do particles, and 720p with MSAA. We know it plays well--and they are not cutting any content, just doubling it. This is how you do a sequal to a launch title that was very good and fun, but in need of some extra polish.

AF in some shots looks spoty, although that may be DOF/MB messing things up some. I will be keeping my eye on that. The damage looks much more pronounced this time but looks like that stuff Turn10 was doing with nasty scratches (the effect could use a lot of work... also, any dust accumulation?) There is a lot of minor stuff to nitpick, but the major things that either consume large amounts of screen space or things that stick out and screw IQ are checked in place. Good tradeoffs.

In classic Xboxyde fashion of late (not that I buy this theory in all cases... this being one of them seeing as BC had a good foundation to build and has obviously implimented many of their graphic tricks with a lot of polish), "It has 5 months of polish! ZOMG!" That said, BC has lived up to their reputation in terms of jaw dropping graphics -- lets hope the other part, the photomode stuff, is a part of their reputation they dropped :P

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

deftangel - Hot stuff!
deftangel
Since 6884 Days
A couple of points.

Bizarre aren't a 3rd party, at least with regards to PGR :) MS have this particular franchise locked up very nicely.

They do share technology. A guy from Turn 10 is over there now and the PGR.TV system was the basis of Forza.TV . Sure, they should have shared a hell of a lot more! But it does happen.

I'd love MS to snap these guys up and now they've opened an MGS office in Reading, London, I wouldn't be suprised to see them pick up at least one more European studio. It doesn't always make sense though...there would be no point buying Bizarre if then half the guys up and left because they wanted to stay independent. Lionhead worked because they were looking to get picked up.

These shots look OMGWOW but they're going to be photomode shots, guarenteed. That in no way should detract from their quality but if you have a stunning photomode app in your game, of course you'll use it for screens!

Besides, I've a hunch you might get a closer look at this next week anyway ;)
In reply to
Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 6987 Days
Deft, Bizarre Creations is a 3rd party. They are an independant studio.

Project Gotham Racing (TM) is a Microsoft trademark -- MS is the owner of the franchise. They contract BC to develop the franchise and MS inturn publishes said titles.

At any time MS could hand development of PGR to another studio.
At any time BC could pass on future development of the PGR franchise.

On the buyout front, I am not actually suggesting a buyout. I would suggest investment. I would like MS to take a minority stake, e.g. 30%, of BC and couple that investment with a significant cash infusion.

The goal of this would be multifold:
1/ Maintain BC independance and control as a developer as well as oppurtunity for growth and internal profits.
2/ BC tap directly into MS's vast internal resources, both technical and financial.
3/ Stabalize MS's studios/development talent; BC enter an exclusive arrangement (similar to former Rare-Nintendo and Insomniac-Sony; i.e. the fabled 2nd party)

On technology sharing... anything happening right now is pretty shallow, which you agree with. But what I am suggesting is a little deeper.

MS has a number of racing franchises: PGR, RC, FM. There may be more -- with the FF wheel MS has made their stake on the racing genre this generation.

It is a waste of resources to have co-development of nearly identical technology on multiple titles, especially when there is talent disparity in the market. On the wasting front... Made up numbers for arguements sake...

PGR4
=> 20 man years physics dev time
=> 40 man years renderer dev time
=> 100 man years car models
=> 20 man years terrestrial vegetation
=> 100 man years building models
=> 10 man years audio

FM2
=> 30 man years physics dev time
=> 20 man years renderer dev time
=> 100 man years car models
=> 50 man years terrestrial vegetation
=> 50 man years building models
=> 10 man years audio

There is significant overlap in development. Pooling the top resource talents from each of the teams to build rich, yet flexible "MGS Racing Middleware" could go a very, very far way.

Obviously each of the titles will need tweaking and individual development. But lets take the renderer for an example. You have 40 PGR4 years and 20 FM2 years for their renderers. Let assume each title will take 10 man years for franchise customization for their design goals and needs; thus there is 40 hours of combined renderer development -- from the BEST talent of all studios -- and 10 additional years of focus. The quality will be higher due to talent, but more importantly a game like FM2 gets more talent in a weak area of development -- nearly 3x as much man years.

And vice vera: The spot on FM2 physics could be even better and migrated downstream to other titles.

Basically the best of all worlds is available to al dev teams. This means higher quality across the board, faster development cycles, and less wasted resources. The last point on resources means this: More time spend on NEW features rather than recreating the wheel.

PGR4 and FM2 are not all entirely different. There are some divergent design goals, but the core concepts and technologies have HUGE overlap. And any differences can be compensated by re-engineering because of the huge amount of time saved on quality tools aimed at content creation. Just sharing source assets for cars, tracks, and art assets would be a huge time saver 0_o No more, "Not enough time for cabin view" excuses!

You don't want BC to lose dev talent -- that is a concern, hence no buyout and instead a financially rewarding situation for BC. But as well as the UE3 engine works for dozens of titles, making an internal racing engine for 3-5 games with shared assets and resources would be very, very nice.

And it would resolve the issue of deficiencies in a number of studios -- and open the door for more quality titles to be developed. With quality tools you can actually fund new studios which, while smaller, have the dev tools of a HUGE racing developer and take a risk on making either new titles or more "niche" products like RC.
In reply to

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!
GriftGFX
Since 7016 Days
Game let me touch you.

I think Bizarre is best off as an indy developer.. but I'd like to think that we're all better off as gamers if studios are allowed certain freedoms that they'll only see in that sort of position. Then again, MS sized funding never hurt anyone.
In reply to
LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Since 7138 Days
At any time MS could hand development of PGR to another studio.
At any time BC could pass on future development of the PGR franchise.
Supert-extremely unlikely. Come on, how's that going to happen?

Why would MS make such a stupid decision, and why would BC make such stupid decision. We are talking about PGR here, not some game that's barely selling.
In reply to
Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 6987 Days
The point was that this is a 3rd party relationship. They have the right to do those things. And history tells us eventually this will happen unless their relationship changes. Very few companies continue investing in an IP owned by another company after 10 years.

Anyhow, BC is a 3rd party. If PGR4 doesn't sell much better than PGR3 and MS wants them to work on PGR5 BUT BC thinks another internal title could sell better don't be surprised if BC moves on. PGR3 sales were dissappointing for what it was to the 360 launch.
In reply to

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

szaromir
szaromir
Since 6772 Days
It still sold around 1M copies didn't it? It's still a very good result (when you look at how hardware was selling at the time - according to vgchartz Motorstorm sold less, but I don't know how accurate these numbers are) and PGR4 should atract more gamers as it'll be more polished, better looking, bring some innovation to the series and with bigger installed 360 base.

Basically Bizarre won't be eager to jump ship unless they'll get an offer from EA to make Need for Speed (which won't happen for many reasons) or from Nintendo.
In reply to

"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 6987 Days
Last time I checked with accurate updated numbers (which was many months ago) it wasn't above 500k sales. That was like late last summer, but typically games don't sell large amounts of units after their first 3 months Maybe being bundled for $30 with FM1 boosted sales (I don't have any numbers on that) but even then their return on sale is really, really low at that point.
In reply to

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Since 7138 Days
Posted by Acert93
Last time I checked with accurate updated numbers (which was many months ago) it wasn't above 500k sales
That's definitely not correct, I would even go as far as to say that's not correct as of last summer even.
In reply to
deftangel - Hot stuff!
deftangel
Since 6884 Days
Posted by Acert93
Last time I checked with accurate updated numbers (which was many months ago) it wasn't above 500k sales. That was like late last summer, but typically games don't sell large amounts of units after their first 3 months Maybe being bundled for $30 with FM1 boosted sales (I don't have any numbers on that) but even then their return on sale is really, really low at that point.
Definitely wrong. There are well over 500k users listed on Mygamercard.net and that's only got 1.5m users registered out of 10m. I would suggest PGR3 being part of a bundle, plus the wheel, plus the FM2 tie-in gave this a pretty hefty boost in sales. It still pops into the UK charts every now and again so new 360 owners seem to pick it up still.

Well over 1m worldwide easily in my opinion, if not that in the US alone.
In reply to
Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 6987 Days
Posted by deftangel
Definitely wrong. There are well over 500k users listed on Mygamercard.net and that's only got 1.5m users registered out of 10m. I would suggest PGR3 being part of a bundle, plus the wheel, plus the FM2 tie-in gave this a pretty hefty boost in sales. It still pops into the UK charts every now and again so new 360 owners seem to pick it up still.

Well over 1m worldwide easily in my opinion, if not that in the US alone.
Good points. I have not tracked software sales since last summer, so I don't know. But the "1M" lists floating around still don't list PGR3. I HOPE it sold really well though.
In reply to

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

Inflatable
Inflatable
Since 7653 Days
Posted by Optimusv2
Its not like the game is running at 60fps.. its running at just 30 and we can't get better textures than this?
High resolution textures eat up memory.. And there's only so much you can do with 512 or less MB of memory and current programming I guess.. The limited memory is a weakness of gameconsoles..
In reply to

http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
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szaromir
szaromir
Since 6772 Days
Posted by Inflatable
High resolution textures eat up memory.. And there's only so much you can do with 512 or less MB of memory and current programming I guess.. The limited memory is a weakness of gameconsoles..
Optimus was sarcastic and mimmicked Lebato's style (i think that was a great post, it really made me laugh).
In reply to

"That just happened 'cause that was awesome" - Randy Pitchford, Gearbox

Inflatable
Inflatable
Since 7653 Days
I know, but the point about the quality of textures and memory still stands.. With the next Xbox and PS4 I except 1GB memory inside, especially if they want to move to native 1080p games..
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http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
http://home.xmsnet.nl/bigbear/fiat124.jpg

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 6987 Days
The historical trend is 8x in memory footprint. e.g.

N64/PS1 had about 4MB
PS2 had 32MB + 4MB VRAM
PS3/360 have 512MB (+10MB eDRAM on 360)

1GB would be a mere 2x jump.

Anyhow, with the state of PC games 512MB of dedicate video memory is rare and games that make good use of it rarer. Bash the consoles Inflatable, but you ignore the advantage of a known, dedicated pool of memory. You know on the 360 what resolution the game will be at, how much memory every user will have, etc. The PC doesn't. Further, the PC wastes memory like no tomorrow. Not only is the OS and such bloated (my fresh XP install after boot has over 350MB of stuff in memory!) but there is mass duplication of content in games. So you have 2GB of system memory and 512MB of video memory... unfortunately your system memory pretty much mirrors the video memory.

PCs are general purpose with high level management, thus wasteful. With the target GPU on most *new* games having 128MB of memory very few games are utilizing the memory footprint that new GPUs offer at 512MB and 1024MB.

Part of the problem with a lot of games is they are essentially PC ports to the consoles and do a craptastic job of memory management. On the 360 you cannot be wasteful as on a PC and you do need to manage your caching more logically -- you cannot tell the consumer, "Stop whining and get a Raptor, 4GB of memory, and a $800 GPU". There is also texture bandwidth -- you get peak 22GB/s for this (buffers are on the eDRAM unlike a PC GPU... same solution on the PC as before: Either lower your settings or buy a GPU with a boatload of wasted bandwidth).

But when designed for it looks great. I can think of a number of games with nice texturing. BFBC for one.

When you recycle your game engine, like CoD2, for console usage, yeah, craptastic.

As for PGR4, sorry... name 1 PC racing game that looks like this:



Games are not perfect. No game, PC or Console, at this point has perfectly high resolution textures across the board. None. All have artifacts.

But as of 2005 PGR3 is head and shoulders above EVERY PC racer in graphics.

Pretty lame that the PC in a 2 year time could not pass PGR3. Heck, according to you, the 360 was old/underperformed to 1337 PC hardware when it shipped.

So where are all the killer street racers blowing PGR away?
In reply to

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Since 6987 Days
As a PC gamer (which many of you remind me of regularly enough) it isn't that I hate the PC, only that I recognize all the epenis bragging about PC's potential almost always overlooks: a) the downside of the open and messy infrastructure and b) the business model and pace of PC development doesn't align with the potential vision people hype it for.

PC gaming IMO validates itself not in cutting edge hardware but in open, social networking; modifications; a variety of excellent input devices catering to specific game types; and a wider selection of unique games including arcade games as well as indy style productions. I like the fact I can find "smart" games, even "smart" action games on the PC. Not every PC game has to target mainstream 1M sales success.

The number of games that ran effeciently on my 6800GT is... woeful. The resource model on the PC as well as programming model pretty much negates many of the hardware benefits. In theory the 6800GT isn't too far behind the 360 GPU (16 texture units @ 400MHz, 32GB/s of bandwidth, 16 wide Pixel shaders and 6 dedicated vertex shaders, SM3.0, 256MB of dedicated memory) but comparing something like FEAR on the 360 to FEAR on the PC is... eye opening.

Graphically, I wouldn't touch the PC version. Of course online and KB/MS, the x factors, make up for decent hardware outputting crappy performance.
In reply to

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

Inflatable
Inflatable
Since 7653 Days
Because the PC is used more for sim racers that put less attention in graphics I guess.. The PC doesn't have games like PGR or Forza (that's why I have a Xbox 360).. But it's not like those games would not look better on a high-end PC, also in november 2005..

It's rediculous anyway to expect a $400 console to do better then a $2000 PC built with the latest tech hardware available anywhere..
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http://www.cyberwarriors.nl
http://home.xmsnet.nl/bigbear/fiat124.jpg

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