People don't have coffee tables in their living rooms? How about a wireless mouse and keypad surface? There are comfortable solutions to this problem.. and if you're not comfortable with it.. don't use it. I just don't think that's a good reason for others not to have the option.That's not conservative or narrow minded at all. It's the right controller for the task. You want to aim at something -- you reach for a pointer, not a joypad. Conservative and narrow minded is thinking that mice/keypad solutions can't work in your living room.. and that we all need to use one input device.Uhm, no.

This is more like playing a light gun game without a light gun at all.And just because I knew it doesn't mean I'm happy with it. I didn't buy this console just for FPS games, you know.. but I sure would like to enjoy them in a proper fashion. They could at least leave it up to the developers.

Like I said earlier TheBeagle.. I've given up all hope of playing console FPS with a good controller.. I'm just defending that point because I think it's a completely valid argument. One that MS and FASA have made a little easier on our side with Shadowrun.

Seriously.. who would care if you could use a mouse and keyboard with a game that allows you access to Vista servers.. where most gamers would be using a mouse and keyboard? Where's the harm.. where's the level playing field now?

There's no such thing as the "right controller for the task" because the task is what the devs make it. Gamepad controlled fps and mouse controlled fps are just different experiences, and the ultimate task is about having fun.

I've used the handball analogy before, that it's a "more effective way to play football". Oh it's not the same sport? But you have goals, and a field, and players, and it looks almost the same! Just like UT2007 and Halo 3! The TASK is to get the ball into the other team's goal! :O

So hands are clearly the right controller for that task, so use it damn you people! Why do football players even play football? They must be completely daft! :O

Um, I guess it's "soccer" to you though.

My point was simply this: FASA has bragged up how the gamepad is just as good as KB/MS. It isn't, as proven by the fact to compensate for the gamepads *natural* inabilities they add "assists". That is fine, but note that most KB/MS FPS lack these and a number of console FPS allow disabling these assists.

Further, some of the comments about the gamepad being better or gamepad players being better only reinforce my point: Play on a level playing field and see what happens.

The comparison of non-assisted KB/MS controls /to/ assisted (auto-aim, magnatisim, camera adhesion) gamepads isn't 1-to-1.

Either compare non-assisted KB/MS to non-assisted gamepad or equal assists on both. But the apples-to-oranges that FASA created, and some of the gamepad gamer comments, smack of consolitis at its best.

From a competitive gamer's perspective (which I am; was part of a competition level clan as well as Top500 in BFTracks while playing DC) all I ask is a) a level playing field and b) the best device for the job.

For competitive FPS gamers KB/MS > Gamepad. End of story. No debate. Many PC FPS support gamepads but you won't see them in competition due to basic physics and physiology. So they bomb on point B. And for point A. the FASA/Shadowrun solution isn't a level playing field.

Which doesn't make it a bad game... it only means comments like, "Gamepads are just as good as KB/MS" strikes as disingenuous at best. Yeah, Gamepads are just as good... when they get "assists" that are not enabled for other controls.

@ TheBeagle: Shadowrun has some problems on Vista... you probably won't be seeing many PC gamers on it because of the small Vista install base, smaller Vista-Live userbase, cost to jump aboard (over $250 to go from XP to Vista/SR/Live... plus all the Vista gaming headaches), and the fact the PC has a ton better FPS out right now. It is DOA.

I agree about the 360 being a console though. I think MS should discontinue of FF Wheel, the AC6 flight stick, the fance pad, camera, guitar, and their new sensor controller. It is a freaking console! Leave the hardcore perephrials for the PC and the kiddie ones for the Wii. We just want a core console experience that is the same across the board on the 360. One gamepad -- affordable too -- and every game using it well. Why doesn't MS understand this? I think the FF Wheel has really ruined a couple games and got developers unfocused on the importance of the standard gamepad and it screws up competition on Live. Probably the WORST example is the fighting stick though, that make fighting games totally unfair. It is gonna suck when VF5 comes out. Everyone should have to use the Xbox Dpad. Sure it sucks, but it makes it fair. It just isn't fair to allow some gamers to purchase perephrials that make them better. It unbalances the platform and the experience. The Xbox is NOT a damn arcade machine. If you want a fighting stick go to the freaking arcade, ok? If you want to play a fighting game on the Xbox us the standard controller or don't play at all.

I'm not sure that's true.. Gamespot suggested that the 360 controller was better for controller Halo 2 Vista, for those very reasons. Auto-aim and camera adhesion gives the gamepad a slightly unfair advantage in certain situations. Sure.. sniping may always be better on a mouse/kb but things are a bit different in close quarters.. especially when the game literally helps you turn.I just disagree is all.. I think gamers should have some actually choices out there, not just those that are most convenient. If it's such a big deal to people who want to play with a gamepad, it wouldn't be hard to manage the difference. Bungie pioneered the match-making system -- add a gamepad only play list if that's what it takes.I don't know what to say.. except it's wrong? Sure.. you could build a game around a different controller, but the typical model for FPS games (movement and aiming being the most important mechanics in this case) are largely designed with a pointing device in mind.. and lets not forget about our friend the keyboard.. for some reason you can't even lean in Call of Duty 2 on 360 :/

You could design a shooter with a gamepad in mind. In fact.. they did. It's called Gears of War and it's pretty excellent. I wouldn't even bother playing Gears with a mouse. They could develop fighting games with gamepads in mind too.. but that's never going to replace an arcade stick either.

I just don't understand the opposition to having options available for people who want it.. in my opinion that's far more short sighted. Selfish even.

Your analogy is uhm.. nice I guess. Doesn't take into account the fact that a game like UT2k7 will give you this option on any other platform though.

Who said I was being sarcastic. :P Muwahahaha

It is fine to have an opinion, hence I deposited my own. But I do find the entire scenario we are faced with as a double standard. It is ok to have extra gamepads (wireless, turbo buttons, modified dpads, disabled rumble, etc), flight sticks, fighter sticks, racing wheels, dance pads, cameras, drums, micriphones, guitars, motion sensors, fishing reels -- you name it, they have been used, and with no issue with mixed play.

But heaven forbid they allow a KB/MS.

From MS's perspective it is a "protect the PC" issue. A simple filter resolves competitive questions some consumers may have -- ie. console gamer who wants to play on the couch and doesn't want to play with mouse players -- but it doesn't resolve the issue of the 360 looking like a PC. As for consumers, I cannot speak for all of them, but it seems prejudicial -- if not overbearing -- to tell people how they should enjoy their gaming. MS was all big on "gaming how you want". And when I read posters raving about FF Wheels and other perephrials but complaining about mice... yeah.

And that dovetails with $ for M$. Sims are a smaller genre where gearheads will splurge for a wheel. FPS are like... everywhere. They are hardcore and casual. Casuals are the bigger market so any move to alienate them is a negative one.

IMO any consumer who argues against a mouse needs to be slamming wheels, guitars, and fight sticks. Yet the majority of what we hear is "No Mice! Any perephrial but a mouse!"

I am good with a Mouse and Gamepad. I started off with W3D and Doom (KB only games) and graduated to KB/MS (Quake) and console FPS (GoldenEye) about the same time span. But all things even I will take the mouse every time. It is a superior product for the role, more intuitive, and importantly more ergonomic. Thumbs for percise controls is very poor ergonomics and isn't a strength of the thumb to begin with. I don't even enjoy gamepad FPS anymore from a mechanics perspective. Yet a whole slew of gamers feel COMPELLED to tell me to go screw myself. You can have your flight sticks, wheels, and guitars but I cannot have a $5 mouse. And fans/MS does everything they can to bully us with FUD and threats to prevent us from such.

Pretty stupid if you ask me, even more so that people cannot see the double standard in perephrial licensing. I wish someone at MS would have the guts to say it how it is: FPS are the bread and butter of our lineup, but Windows is our gravy train, of which games are a major part. Offering mouse support on the 360 blurs the PC-Console line and would give many consumers no reason to buy a PC, as well as it could alienate some casual consumers. We could resolve the alienation issue with filters and assists, but the core business issue could ruin the company. So it is a no go, regardless of the fact it would make a mass of consumers very happy and actually IMPROVE our product in the eyes of millions of consumers.

But you won't get such frankness from corporate shills. And so they double standard continues with the theme, "Perephrials are fine, even if they give an advantage, as long as it isn't a mouse".

And console FPS players around world rejoice and take joy in telling others how they should play their games: Gamepad or Wheel for racers, Gamepad or Stick for fighters, but don't you dare use a mouse!
:|

I don't think it would change things drastically really.. it may change a few games here and there. But who knows -- maybe it would benefit the platform by bringing in some PC users who might typically avoid the console experience. I know that's not exactly a market they're trying to tap.. which leads us to..A good point. Never really put much thought into the protection of the PC user base. I'm not sure it's really worth it though.. they're trying to bring new users into that experience as well by adapting certain aspects of their console market to Windows.

It's sort of odd really. On one hand they try to distance the two platforms, and on the other they're really making one an extension of the other. I'm okay with the latter.. because I know I'll keep supporting both types of platform for gaming.. but the hardware manufacturers who are trying to sell $600 video cards may take up some issue with that.People will just tell you, "It's not the same!" (they're just wrong :P)

Given equal assists, I think it would break down like this

The best players with KB/MS would rule pubs.
The best Gamepad gamers after that in pubs; stomp those below, get stomped by those above.
The above average KB/MS would be next.
Average KB/MS and above average Gamepad gamers are about equal.
Below average KB/MS and average gamepad users are about equal.
Below average gamepad users last.

Demographically the numbers vary on how big those segments are. There are a lot of average FPS/Console gamers. Just wathing videos here, IGN, Gamespot, etc and you can see how horrible aim can be. Yet having watched a lot of typical PC gamers with a mouse their accuracy and ability to quickly line up shots is a lot better.

Now I have seen crazy good gamepad players. VERY good players. Crazy aim. They would hold their own against very good Mouse gamers, although competitive Mouse players are out there in their own world (see: CounterStrike, Quake 3 Arena, etc and I am not even talking about Fatality or Frog level players, although include them to for discussion).

I like to watch how people play, and I would have to say

Great Mouse > Great Gamepad
Average Mouse > Average Gamepad

And the average mouse userbase skill wise is larger than the average gamepad one. I have a number of 4 player FPS console games and when I get together with my more casual gaming friends it isn't even funny. I have gone 10 minutes in a game like TimeSplitters with 3v1 and not died. That doesn't happen very often against your typical PC gamers unless you are killer at the game and play a lot. Now at Halo parties it is different: most of the guys are pretty good, as they take their Halo seriously. So these above average players definately are not neutered, but in the same seeing them miss 5 or 6 shots in a row and then you realize: With a mouse you are dead on shot 2.

Just different worlds. Now the FPS genre can change that. A fast-twitchy FPS is more sensative to contorls. A GOW, or even Halo, game isn't so much. Halo is kind of plodding and forgiving compared to a UT or CS.

In CS you make a bad corner you are dead. You get the drop and miss a single shot you could be dead. A small corner of your head appears above a ridge you are dead.

It is fast and unforgiving. In such scenarios fast, and accurate, control is the difference. Even above average FPS players can get wiped up time and time again. I would say 1 really good CS player could mop up 5 good gamepad players with no assists -- and probably win 9 out of 10 rounds.

I don't know if others watch other people play, but I have a bit. And the difference between watching a PC FPS and a Console FPS is night and day.

Well.. you could match making options could filter out mouse users, bungie has created a great system that I think could be adapted to suite the needs of a balanced community. It may have negative effects on certain parts of the population pool, but I think it might work.

Why not just have the best of both worlds, and give everyone what they want? Is that really impossible?Well some games simply would be.. horrible with a game pad. Battlefield 2 would not function as a direct port.. not with controls in tact.

I'm actually curious to see how deep the interface for Enemy Territory winds up being.. certain games are restricted not only by the lack of a pointer but because they don't have a huge key pad to play around with either. Your five fingers can press quite a few more buttons than the two fingers you usually use on a game pad.

I mean.. you can't lean in Call of Duty :/

Well regardless of my personal feelings about input methods, which I feel I've already presented the best way I can, I would be more open towards m/kb on the 360 if I believed for a SPLIT SECOND that people wouldn't find exploits to play with those devices in gamepad matches.

There's literally nobody - nothing anyone can say to make me trust that this could be controlled. There's just one thing you can count on really, and that is that there'll always be people at the ready to screw things up for the rest of us.

Gears is the most un-analogue and keyboard friendly shooter yet on the Xbox/360, that statement makes no sense at all, especially following your explanation for why you feel like you do.

You've got ONE button for practically everything, easily applied to space or whatever you use to jump. There's nothing that capitalises on the gamepad's unique features, no analogue movement at all, just walk-RUN, so that's sorted with "always run" on. The shooting is all completely FPS like - much like Acert said in a post a while ago - and there's really nothing about it that's console specific at all. In fact I think they even made it with a future PC version in mind.

Halo feels tons more gamepad oriented in its execution.

Whist there is scope for third party controllers it absolutely will exploited. My personal feeling (which I accept is NOT rational) is to keep them away! I'm not a pro by any means but I enjoy playing Halo at a decent-ish level. Introducing kb/m , whether it's filtered out in matchmaking or not will completely mess up Halo 3 online. It will be exploited and anybody who wants to win a game will have no choice but to use the "superior" control scheme.

I've no interest in using a kb/m on my sofa, I'm more than happy with my gamepad.

I completely accept this is ridiculous when you frame it with other controllers (wheel etc) and that my personal distate for it shouldn't prevent others who desire it having the choice but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world where everybody plays nice and in their properly filtered matchmaking parameters. For me, Halo online on an Xbox platform is sacrosanct and already has to deal with a huge amount of griefing, exploits, cheating and other such shennanigans. If keeping that to some kind of tolerable level involves locking out a vocal minority who legitimately would like kb/m support then it gets my vote.

Huh? The fact that one button does practically anything does not make it more suited to a keyboard... most PC games have like, a billion more buttons than console shooters. I don't get that statement at all. Gears was absolutely designed with a game pad in mind and the controls are better (imo) than any console FPS I've played. Analog movement? Analog movements not really key to any console FPS I've played anyway. Play Halo CE on PC -- it's still pretty good with a mouse and keyboard.

It's more the aiming system that makes it so well suited to the joy pad though, not just movement. But it's everything really -- movement, aiming, interface -- it's all very console friendly. It's perfectly laid out for the 360 pad.. I certainly can't name one FPS that does it better.

FPS games rarely make proper use of analog movement anyway. You could spend all day running around in Halo at full speed -- you don't really need to walk -- plus, there's this little key called "shift" which allows you to do just that in several PC games. The lack of analog movement doesn't really mean anything here.. or anywhere in this genre really.

Most keyboard friendly? That would be Call of Duty 2.. the movement controls aren't even complete in the console version. Now there is a game that is keyboard friendly.

...

Back to Shadowrun for a second. I've played a reasonable amount of the demo now, and I think it's given me a decent impression of the overall game.

What I like: This game has a ton of variety.. probably the most varied gameplay I've seen in any FPS on the Xbox 360 yet. The custom load outs remind me of a bunch of other shooters.. Tribes and Dystopia both come to mind.. with different classes and different available weapons and equipment for each class.

Movement is quite a bit different than any other shooter. The gravity is relatively low.. which I'm not a big fan of, but it seems to work well in a world where you can fly and teleport with ease anyway.

The equipment and abilities are the games real strong point, and what really sets it apart from other console shooters. It has a bit of a learning curve, but it's nothing that most people can't handle in just a few rounds I figure. Especially if they actually follow the tutorials.

I also like the match-making, although it seems a bit buggy. It'll split a party for balance reasons even if it didn't need to -- and sometimes it doesn't put your team back together for quite a while. I also had one instance last night where a member of my party was switched to the other team during a match.. they should fix that.

My favorite load-out in the demo: SMG/Shotgun/Smartlink/Teleport/Frags .. with Resurrect neatly tucked into my back pocket just in case I need it. You basically need to be an Elf in the demo though.. humans seem pretty useless. $500 and a very small amount more health doesn't make up for what they're lacking.

What I don't like: The run/walk animation.. despite having a simular level of gravity, Halo's animations seem way more natural. They may have figured that the slow and clunky animations went well w/ the movement speed and gravity, but they look pretty bad. Doesn't really effect your ability to enjoy the game, but it is a bit of an eye sore.

They also could have given the player some kind of ability to customize their look. The fact that there are only two human models (one for each team) makes everyone look like a clone. It may not be so noticeable with more classes, but I think even with four, there could be more variety visually.

Overall, I'm pretty pleased with what I played. Is it compelling enough to play? Absolutely. Value becomes another issue all together -- but ignoring the price tag -- it seems like a pretty solid mp game.

Teleport is amazing. Teleport + shotgun is brutal!

No.

Did you not see what I done there....No?
I'm so wasted here.