First trailer of SOMA, coming in 2015

Commented on 2013-10-11 18:49:17

Looking sweet. Some real prometheus/alien vibes going on. Good to see it's also coming to PS4 otherwise wouldn't be able to play it.... Would love a port of amnesia and machine for pigs too while they're at it.

In reply to

digi_matrix

Commented on 2013-10-11 19:08:38

Interesting they're going for a younger protagonist compared to the old dudes in Amnesia games. Love the melding of technology and biology, got a real Cronenberg vibe.

In reply to

Nietzsche

Commented on 2013-10-11 19:10:15

Atmosphere seems top notch. I'll keep an eye on this for sure.

In reply to

Yarost

Commented on 2013-10-11 19:19:04

Well snap, 2015 T_T

In reply to

CrazyKot

Commented on 2013-10-11 20:31:59

boring...

In reply to

synce

Commented on 2013-10-11 21:15:34

Looks awesome, I just wish they hadn't announced it 2 years in advance.

In reply to

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 06:08:45

Looks awesome, but they need rethink they're approach to some basic stuff like checkpoints. Amnesia stopped being scary after the first hour when you realized that death has almost zero consequences, because you would just respawn at a checkpoint you got 30 seconds ago. The thought of replaying a larger chunk of your progress should constantly keep you on your toes like it always did in the best survival horror games.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-10-12 12:27:31

Cloud: ...you died a lot in amnesia? Wtf? I think i died a few times right at the end. For most of the game it just keeps you scared shitless of what would happen if that shadow down the hall actually did get a hold of you.

The fear is not supposed to come from potentially having to replay, the fear should come from the game making you not want to turn the next corner because of what might be there. Which is exactly what Amnesia does.

Synce: Well, seeing as how there is two and a half months left of 2013 it might not be 2 years away. I'm guessing we are looking at early 2015 rather than the holiday season :P

As for the game, it looks good. Can't wait to play it, see if they can keep on delivering.

In reply to

Boardy

Commented on 2013-10-12 12:38:07

Looks like the artist hr giger's had some influance on this. For a horror game that can only be a good thing.

In reply to

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 14:17:28 In reply to Megido

Posted by Megido

Cloud: ...you died a lot in amnesia? Wtf? I think i died a few times right at the end. For most of the game it just keeps you scared shitless of what would happen if that shadow down the hall actually did get a hold of you.

The fear is not supposed to come from potentially having to replay, the fear should come from the game making you not want to turn the next corner because of what might be there. Which is exactly what Amnesia does.

Yeah I died simply because I could. That's what I'm saying. The monsters weren't that scary anymore after a while. There was too many of them and I knew I can just run like an idiot and try everything, because dying is really not an issue. IMO atmosphere alone can carry a game only so far and eventually you need the fear od dying to kick in. It doesn't work when you're made virtually immortal by too frequent checkpoints.

In reply to

supercomputer

Commented on 2013-10-12 14:31:24

2015 lol

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-10-12 14:39:54 In reply to CloudXIV

Posted by CloudXIV

Yeah I died simply because I could. That's what I'm saying. The monsters weren't that scary anymore after a while. There was too many of them and I knew I can just run like an idiot and try everything, because dying is really not an issue. IMO atmosphere alone can carry a game only so far and eventually you need the fear od dying to kick in. It doesn't work when you're made virtually immortal by too frequent checkpoints.

Well, you not being able to invest in the game isn't really the game's fault though, is it? If you had to replay an hour of the game when you die'd you'd be bitching about that instead.

It's a problem pretty much all narrative driven games deal with and i just don't see it being a more legit claim for Amnesia than for any other game. It's just something you as the player will have to deal with, be it in this game or another. Just set your own goal of not dying and restart when you do or something, be hard core. I do certainly agree that once you get up close with the baddies a few times it takes some of the tension out of it, especially near the end when the game just goes "fuck it" and lets you see everything in full light. But even so i think it's not a huge problem, the game is still fantastic and i can't think of any game that does horror better and only a few that do it just as well.

In reply to

[quote=CloudXIV]

Yeah I died simply because I could. That's what I'm saying. The monsters weren't that scary anymore after a while. There was too many of them and I knew I can just run like an idiot and try everything, because dying is really not an issue. IMO atmosphere alone can carry a game only so far and eventually you need the fear od dying to kick in. It doesn't work when you're made virtually immortal by too frequent checkpoints.[/quote]

Well, you not being able to invest in the game isn't really the game's fault though, is it? If you had to replay an hour of the game when you die'd you'd be bitching about that instead.

It's a problem pretty much all narrative driven games deal with and i just don't see it being a more legit claim for Amnesia than for any other game. It's just something you as the player will have to deal with, be it in this game or another. Just set your own goal of not dying and restart when you do or something, be hard core. I do certainly agree that once you get up close with the baddies a few times it takes some of the tension out of it, especially near the end when the game just goes "fuck it" and lets you see everything in full light. But even so i think it's not a huge problem, the game is still fantastic and i can't think of any game that does horror better and only a few that do it just as well.

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 14:56:57 In reply to Megido

Posted by Megido

Well, you not being able to invest in the game isn't really the game's fault though, is it? If you had to replay an hour of the game when you die'd you'd be bitching about that instead.

It's a problem pretty much all narrative driven games deal with and i just don't see it being a more legit claim for Amnesia than for any other game. It's just something you as the player will have to deal with, be it in this game or another. Just set your own goal of not dying and restart when you do or something, be hard core. I do certainly agree that once you get up close with the baddies a few times it takes some of the tension out of it, especially near the end when the game just goes "fuck it" and lets you see everything in full light. But even so i think it's not a huge problem, the game is still fantastic and i can't think of any game that does horror better and only a few that do it just as well.

I wouldn't be bitchin' about it, because that's how Resident Evil (the proper ones) worked and I loved it. I have a feeling that developers are afraid to punish us these days, because they fear a punishing game won't sell. And I'll stand by my opinion that a horror game needs to be punishing. I still loved Amnesia, because it was a really good game despite all this, but I honestly wasn't afraid anymore after the first 1/4 of the game.

In reply to

[quote=Megido]

Well, you not being able to invest in the game isn't really the game's fault though, is it? If you had to replay an hour of the game when you die'd you'd be bitching about that instead.

It's a problem pretty much all narrative driven games deal with and i just don't see it being a more legit claim for Amnesia than for any other game. It's just something you as the player will have to deal with, be it in this game or another. Just set your own goal of not dying and restart when you do or something, be hard core. I do certainly agree that once you get up close with the baddies a few times it takes some of the tension out of it, especially near the end when the game just goes "fuck it" and lets you see everything in full light. But even so i think it's not a huge problem, the game is still fantastic and i can't think of any game that does horror better and only a few that do it just as well.[/quote]

I wouldn't be bitchin' about it, because that's how Resident Evil (the proper ones) worked and I loved it. I have a feeling that developers are afraid to punish us these days, because they fear a punishing game won't sell. And I'll stand by my opinion that a horror game needs to be punishing. I still loved Amnesia, because it was a really good game despite all this, but I honestly wasn't afraid anymore after the first 1/4 of the game.

Megido

Commented on 2013-10-12 15:42:52

Punishing is fine. In a sense i think a lot of games, especially AAA titles, tend to puss out when it comes to difficulty. But you also have to realize that if you picked up a survival horror game today and it had a high difficulty and sent you back an hour every time you died, you wouldn't want to play it either. it's fine with RE because nostalgia is keeping that shit afloat, but come on. No way would we (and by "we" i mean gamers collectively) let that fly.

Difficulty and punishment in game is a very delicate balancing act, and even when done right it can feel extremely tedious at time. In the end games are entertainment and if you constantly go "oh god, i have to do this shit AGAIN!?" then the game has failed too. I mean just look at a game like Dark Souls that has great mechanics for punishing you and is rather difficult at times but usually keeps it fair, yet a TON of people still find it way too hard to play.

Again, what's stopping you from just starting over if you die? Just hit that New Game button every time a baddie smacks you in the face and i bet the terror will return. The game doesn't force you to keep playing once you die, you have the choice. I bet you could even go in there with the editor and chop some of the save points out if that's what you want.

In reply to

Punishing is fine. In a sense i think a lot of games, especially AAA titles, tend to puss out when it comes to difficulty. But you also have to realize that if you picked up a survival horror game today and it had a high difficulty and sent you back an hour every time you died, you wouldn't want to play it either. it's fine with RE because nostalgia is keeping that shit afloat, but come on. No way would we (and by "we" i mean gamers collectively) let that fly.

Difficulty and punishment in game is a very delicate balancing act, and even when done right it can feel extremely tedious at time. In the end games are entertainment and if you constantly go "oh god, i have to do this shit AGAIN!?" then the game has failed too. I mean just look at a game like Dark Souls that has great mechanics for punishing you and is rather difficult at times but usually keeps it fair, yet a TON of people still find it way too hard to play.

Again, what's stopping you from just starting over if you die? Just hit that New Game button every time a baddie smacks you in the face and i bet the terror will return. The game doesn't force you to keep playing once you die, you have the choice. I bet you could even go in there with the editor and chop some of the save points out if that's what you want.

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 15:50:35

Nah, it's not only nostalgia and I'm also not talking about making it into a total roguelike. Dark Souls does punish you and sends you back to the last bonfire (or the Nexus in case of Demon's Souls) and makes you lose your souls giving you one chance to backtrack and retrieve them. It's not too harsh, but those are consequences of you dying, it doesn't make your (gaming) world fall apart, but keeps you on your toes, fighting with all your might not to die. Amnesia totally lacked this. Maybe a simple design choice like adding difficulty levels could fix it. Checkpoints would be fewer and further apart on higher difficulty. That would work.

In reply to

KORNdog

Commented on 2013-10-12 16:53:15

I'm not entirely sure the fear of dying has any connection to horror though...at least not for me personally.

In reply to

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 16:56:07 In reply to KORNdog

Posted by KORNdog

I'm not entirely sure the fear of dying has any connection to horror though...at least not for me personally.

It's kinda what the precursor of the genre focused on. So yeah, I think it has a lot to do with horror. Besides "FEAR of dying" like you know, FEAR? The feeling that has everything to do with horror.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-10-12 18:15:30

Except you can haul ass between pretty much any 2 spots in dark souls in a few minutes. If you die you are back in the action almost instantly, it punishes you for not learning by taking your souls away, not by resetting game progress.

In reply to

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 18:29:16 In reply to Megido

Posted by Megido

Except you can haul ass between pretty much any 2 spots in dark souls in a few minutes. If you die you are back in the action almost instantly, it punishes you for not learning by taking your souls away, not by resetting game progress.

You're not entirely correct. The amount of time it takes you to "get back" in Dark Souls depends on a lot of things. Sure, it takes a few minutes if you know the place and cleared a lot of it, opened shortcuts, activated bonfires. But it takes longer if you just started with this particular loaction, especially when playing the game for the first time (and we should consider a 1st playthrough for the sake of this comparison). Not to mention the threat of dying again before reaching your blood stain. Also, I'm not talking about replaying 5 hours of progress, but a reasonable amount, like 20-30 minutes. It's enough to force you to think about your approach to tackling the games challenges, impose a genuine fear of dying.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-10-12 18:36:19

I can run through Dark Souls in 4-5 hours easy, but sure i know the maps and strategies. Took me maybe 30-40 hours the first time. Still, even when dying the bonfires are close by eachother and you constantly make small progress in that you LEARN enemy placement and get new ideas for how to handle situations, something that you don't really get in a narrative driven game like Amnesia, where you'll only have to retread old puzzles, already explored corridors and finding the same items over and over again if you happen to die at a certain spot a few times.

Mastering the environments and enemies in Dark Souls is integral to the experience, re-reading notes and re-waching cutscenes is NOT integral to your enjoyment of Amnesia.´Punishing the player by doing a segment over again when that is not part of what makes the game interesting is a complete at utter shite way of punishing. It's the kind of punishment that makes you go "fuck this game". It doesn't let you practice or anything, it just sets you back with the express motive of annoying the fuck out of you. That's complete bollocks in terms of game design.

Or perhaps another way of putting it, should i be scared by the game or by the promise that if i fuck up i get to be bored for 30 minutes before i can get back to enjoying my game?

In reply to

I can run through Dark Souls in 4-5 hours easy, but sure i know the maps and strategies. Took me maybe 30-40 hours the first time. Still, even when dying the bonfires are close by eachother and you constantly make small progress in that you LEARN enemy placement and get new ideas for how to handle situations, something that you don't really get in a narrative driven game like Amnesia, where you'll only have to retread old puzzles, already explored corridors and finding the same items over and over again if you happen to die at a certain spot a few times.

Mastering the environments and enemies in Dark Souls is integral to the experience, re-reading notes and re-waching cutscenes is NOT integral to your enjoyment of Amnesia.´Punishing the player by doing a segment over again when that is not part of what makes the game interesting is a complete at utter shite way of punishing. It's the kind of punishment that makes you go "fuck this game". It doesn't let you practice or anything, it just sets you back with the express motive of annoying the fuck out of you. That's complete bollocks in terms of game design.

Or perhaps another way of putting it, should i be scared by the game or by the promise that if i fuck up i get to be bored for 30 minutes before i can get back to enjoying my game?

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 18:44:09

It was you that brought up Dark Souls. And yes, it is a completely different game so let's drop it. Resident Evil then. Make every room in RE a checkpoint and you ruin the game completely. But hell, if people (like you) are so bent on not repeating any amount of progress then penalize dying in a different way, but make the player suffer the consequences one way or the other. Maybe take away a number of the player's supplies away every time he dies or something. Anything to make him actually care and try not to die, because in Amnesia you could leave the game on unpoused and go drink tea or something and it wouldn't really matter.

In reply to

KORNdog

Commented on 2013-10-12 18:47:54 In reply to CloudXIV

Posted by CloudXIV

It's kinda what the precursor of the genre focused on. So yeah, I think it has a lot to do with horror. Besides "FEAR of dying" like you know, FEAR? The feeling that has everything to do with horror.

Different types of fear though, atmosphere, narrative, mood, "monsters in the closet", jump scares...these are "horror" imo. Fear of dying adds tension, but fear of dying can be in any game, it is not exclusive to horror titles. It does not add to the suspense of horror for me. More atmospheric worlds, better, more "freaky" narrative and more scares add to the suspense of horror much more.

Dying and having to replay the last hour would just frustrate me when all i want to do is keep immersed in the horror of the world.

In reply to

Megido

Commented on 2013-10-12 18:54:26

I'm not disagreeing that getting the player invested in teh game is a good thing, i'm just thinking that your way of just removing checkpoints is not a very good way to solve it. It's a way taht would only serve to annoy 99% of all players.

And i mean RE isn't all tht threatning either, once you learn how to deal with the enemies. I mean i'm not particularly scared in RE, and i never was, because once you learn how to run past the zombies or what gun to use to get the hunters there isn't much to be afraid of. And RE is guilty of just the same. Before anything too tough tehre's almost always the opportunity to find an ink ribbon and a typewriter to save so that you won't get punished too bad by some bullshit boss. I guess the limited ink ribbons is in a sense a nice touch, but it's also something that potentially can fuck the player really bad unless there's always an ink ribbon at the next typewriter (usually the case in my experience).

RE was a really flawed game in so many ways, and the difficulty/punishment area is not exactly a part where i think the game really stepped up either. But it is a really tough problem. How do you make a game tough and punishing without alienating players or just ending up with a game that is being willfully obtuse?

edit; Also in your amnesia case with leaving the computer, how is that NOT the case with RE? Clear the room, go have a sleep and come back. I expect your face won't have too many zombies gnawing on it.

In reply to

I'm not disagreeing that getting the player invested in teh game is a good thing, i'm just thinking that your way of just removing checkpoints is not a very good way to solve it. It's a way taht would only serve to annoy 99% of all players.

And i mean RE isn't all tht threatning either, once you learn how to deal with the enemies. I mean i'm not particularly scared in RE, and i never was, because once you learn how to run past the zombies or what gun to use to get the hunters there isn't much to be afraid of. And RE is guilty of just the same. Before anything too tough tehre's almost always the opportunity to find an ink ribbon and a typewriter to save so that you won't get punished too bad by some bullshit boss. I guess the limited ink ribbons is in a sense a nice touch, but it's also something that potentially can fuck the player really bad unless there's always an ink ribbon at the next typewriter (usually the case in my experience).

RE was a really flawed game in so many ways, and the difficulty/punishment area is not exactly a part where i think the game really stepped up either. But it is a really tough problem. How do you make a game tough and punishing without alienating players or just ending up with a game that is being willfully obtuse?

edit; Also in your amnesia case with leaving the computer, how is that NOT the case with RE? Clear the room, go have a sleep and come back. I expect your face won't have too many zombies gnawing on it.

CloudXIV

Commented on 2013-10-12 18:57:58 In reply to KORNdog

Sure, there's no horror without atmosphere and mood and the fear od dying obviously isn't and shouldn't be exclusive to horror games. BUT, the fear of dying is present in every horror. A character is always afraid for their life or well being. Even in Amnesia the character you're playing is scared shitless because he might die at any moment. But how can you convey that feeling if you as a player feel almost immortal? Fear of dying isn't everything in horror, but is damn important IMO. It should be there in some way.

Megido: I get what you're saying, but I was talking about leaving the game on in a location full of enemies. You can keep dying, but it doesn't really matter, that was my point. And for me RE is one of the best games I have ever played (the 1st, the remake and 2) and it was really damn hard on the first playthrough. Sure, I learned hwo to exploit the game and I made no save, no healing items speed runs, but that's beside the point. You can master every game and we're talking about the initial experience here. I played Amnesia only once and found the game incredibly forgiving and even the thick atmosphere didn't do anything for me after a while, because I couldn't shake the feeling of an "amusement park horror ride" that I would finish no matter what I did.

In reply to

Sure, there's no horror without atmosphere and mood and the fear od dying obviously isn't and shouldn't be exclusive to horror games. BUT, the fear of dying is present in every horror. A character is always afraid for their life or well being. Even in Amnesia the character you're playing is scared shitless because he might die at any moment. But how can you convey that feeling if you as a player feel almost immortal? Fear of dying isn't everything in horror, but is damn important IMO. It should be there in some way.

Megido: I get what you're saying, but I was talking about leaving the game on in a location full of enemies. You can keep dying, but it doesn't really matter, that was my point. And for me RE is one of the best games I have ever played (the 1st, the remake and 2) and it was really damn hard on the first playthrough. Sure, I learned hwo to exploit the game and I made no save, no healing items speed runs, but that's beside the point. You can master every game and we're talking about the initial experience here. I played Amnesia only once and found the game incredibly forgiving and even the thick atmosphere didn't do anything for me after a while, because I couldn't shake the feeling of an "amusement park horror ride" that I would finish no matter what I did.

KORNdog

Commented on 2013-10-12 19:11:09 In reply to CloudXIV

Posted by CloudXIV

Sure, there's no horror without atmosphere and mood and the fear od dying obviously isn't and shouldn't be exclusive to horror games. BUT, the fear of dying is present in every horror. A character is always afraid for their life or well being. Even in Amnesia the character you're playing is scared shitless because he might die at any moment. But how can you convey that feeling if you as a player feel almost immortal? Fear of dying isn't everything in horror, but is damn important IMO. It should be there in some way.

The problem with your "fix" is that you create repetition. And nothing removes fear quite like repetition. No matter how a game approaches it's fear, be it cheap scares or more subtle atmosphere and a constant sense of dread. Repeating that section multiple times because you didn't save/the game had no checkpoints is a sure fire way to remove any fear or horror you may have otherwise felt as well as add frustration/boredom. In silent hills case, it's the unknown, you fear what might lurk in the shadows more then what actually lurks in the shadows, but if you KNOW nothing lurks in the shadows due to playing it 5 times already, the fear is gone. It becomes a tedious trek through boring corridors to get to the point you died before. The horror is broken. Same for jump scares. Dogs jumping through windows can only scare you once. Repetition stops it being scary. And that's the thing with horror titles, they're ultimately a one shot deal, you can't get fooled twice knowing what to expect.

So given the choice being punishing, but horror killing. and forgiving and keeping you immersed and experiencing new scares....then i chose the latter. It's the lesser of 2 evils.

In reply to

[quote=CloudXIV]Sure, there's no horror without atmosphere and mood and the fear od dying obviously isn't and shouldn't be exclusive to horror games. BUT, the fear of dying is present in every horror. A character is always afraid for their life or well being. Even in Amnesia the character you're playing is scared shitless because he might die at any moment. But how can you convey that feeling if you as a player feel almost immortal? Fear of dying isn't everything in horror, but is damn important IMO. It should be there in some way.[/quote]

The problem with your "fix" is that you create repetition. And nothing removes fear quite like repetition. No matter how a game approaches it's fear, be it cheap scares or more subtle atmosphere and a constant sense of dread. Repeating that section multiple times because you didn't save/the game had no checkpoints is a sure fire way to remove any fear or horror you may have otherwise felt as well as add frustration/boredom. In silent hills case, it's the unknown, you fear what might lurk in the shadows more then what actually lurks in the shadows, but if you KNOW nothing lurks in the shadows due to playing it 5 times already, the fear is gone. It becomes a tedious trek through boring corridors to get to the point you died before.  The horror is broken. Same for jump scares. Dogs jumping through windows can only scare you once. Repetition stops it being scary. And that's the thing with horror titles, they're ultimately a one shot deal, you can't get fooled twice knowing what to expect.

So given the choice being punishing, but horror killing. and forgiving and keeping you immersed and experiencing new scares....then i chose the latter. It's the lesser of 2 evils.

First trailer of SOMA, coming in 2015

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