DVD9 limits PGR4 (HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT)

Since 7039 Days

Absolutely, I definitely agree. In fact I think limiting your space and in some ways even the amount of horsepower keeps you thinking, keeps you clever. A lot of really great techniques employ a less-is-more mentality, and I'm the one beating the Wii drum louder than anyone here, after all.

I just think the space issue is perhaps taken a little bit more to heart when it's the developer of PGR that says it, by far the one of the least likely to wanna lick Sony naughty bits.

Whether it's actually needed is sort of a matter of perspective I suppose. Crysis looks insane partially because it's built for more capable hardware than the PS3 and 360, but do we *need* that extra power? At the end of the day possibilities are just possibilities. I could've been a pilot.

In reply to

ItsOK_ImaNinja

Since 6329 Days

I don't understand this.

In real life the textures of surfaces don't change when the lighting changes.

I think the problem with the game is that much of the textures are taken from photos and touched up to match the lighting.

So in order for them to look correct they would have to redo the textures and have duplicates.

However the real solution would be to have textures from neutral lighting and then let the lighting conditions in the game change the way they look.

It seems what they did is the played around with the lighting engine to compensate for the fact that the textures would not normally be lit properly.

I don't think this is a problem for DVD9. Every racing game in the past has always had only 1 set of textures for the track.

Instead, I think this is a problem for PGR4 specifically.

In reply to

SimonM7

Since 7039 Days

From what I gather, the use of canned lighting in adition to dynamic lighting is something that's making a return in games lately, with COD4 and Killzone 2 looking awesome very much thanks to it. I'm completely lost when it comes to tech stuff, but from what I understand Bizarre is doing something similar here and it yields better results than relying simply on dynamic lighting (like Acert talked about earlier) and it would seem to me that doing this on.. say, GTA's scale could get pretty crazy.

In reply to

GriftGFX

Since 7016 Days

Posted by JXB

Blu-ray and Hd-dvd arent needed, as time goes by tools will get better, compression techniques will advance and we wont need all that space.

And 640k is enough memory. As time goes on, assets will get larger and larger and no matter how good compression gets, 9 gigs won't be enough. I'm not saying that it's not enough for now -- but as you can see here -- we're already seeing the effects of that limitation.

In reply to

ItsOK_ImaNinja

Since 6329 Days

So that is what they are doing. Their textures are not neutral, they are painted with lighting already on them.

Actually, I don't like that direction at all. Its a cheat and it results in problems like this. I think it is much better to use neutral textures and instead create a better lighting model.

That includes shadows that equal the lighting.

The problem with painting lighting on textures is that if you point a dynamic light on them it makes the scene look unnatural. A dark texture that should look fine instead looks like a bright... dark texture.

And a texture with a warm glow on it that has a flash light shining on it will wash out instead of showing contrast.

So like I said I don't think this is so much a problem with DVD9, but instead a problem with how the developer has chosen to do lighting in the game.

If this game was being done on blu-ray they might have much more space to work with but that would only lead to the developer getting lazy instead of working to improve the lighting model.

In reply to

So that is what they are doing. Their textures are not neutral, they are painted with lighting already on them.

Actually, I don't like that direction at all. Its a cheat and it results in problems like this. I think it is much better to use neutral textures and instead create a better lighting model.

That includes shadows that equal the lighting.

The problem with painting lighting on textures is that if you point a dynamic light on them it makes the scene look unnatural. A dark texture that should look fine instead looks like a bright... dark texture.

And a texture with a warm glow on it that has a flash light shining on it will wash out instead of showing contrast.

So like I said I don't think this is so much a problem with DVD9, but instead a problem with how the developer has chosen to do lighting in the game.

If this game was being done on blu-ray they might have much more space to work with but that would only lead to the developer getting lazy instead of working to improve the lighting model.

RC_Master

Since 6918 Days

The mind boggles.

This thread has got very big, and has swayed wildly off course.

I mean, its not just DVD9s limitation. Its also them not wanting to go Multi-dvd, and/or install content to a harddrive that may not always be there. Plus the product of the way the lighting is done in their game.

But who cares. PGR4 will be awesome, and I buy and love it. With or without day and night settings. That might be DLC anyway!

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Ignorance is the true enemy of all things.

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ItsOK_ImaNinja

Since 6329 Days

That's true. different lighting conditions could be DLC, which is fine so long as it's free.

In reply to

Inflatable

Since 7653 Days

Posted by GriftGFX

And 640k is enough memory. As time goes on, assets will get larger and larger and no matter how good compression gets, 9 gigs won't be enough. I'm not saying that it's not enough for now -- but as you can see here -- we're already seeing the effects of that limitation.

I agree.. DVD is fine for this generation of consoles, but the next-gen (Xbox) will have to come up with something new.. If that's a HD-DVD or Blu-ray drive, or a big harddrive to install games on, we'll see.. But for now DVD is still fine, it's only very few games that are limited by the 8.5GB space..

And people that say next-gen games are not possible without HD-DVD or Blu-ray are clueless.. It's just storage-space, not powerfull hardware needed for next-gen.. Having a DVD-drive doesn't mean the Xbox 360 isn't capable of next-gen games, that's total BS.. n3ro, get a clue!

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ItsOK_ImaNinja

Since 6329 Days

chances are next generation we'll be either using downloadable games, or solid state / flash based games. Like Next Gen carts.

By the time the next generation rolls around, HD-DVD and BR should be a thing of the past where gaming is concerned.

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anm8rjp

Since 7713 Days

Posted by Inflatable

If that's a HD-DVD or Blu-ray drive, or a big harddrive to install games on, we'll see.. !

I'm wondering if the next gen in 5-6 years, that it will still be distributed on DVD, and that the Hard drive in 5-6 years will be a 1 TB drive or so, and you just install the game on it for fast access times, and then if you run low on space, after installing video/games/dlc etc, you just uninstall, since you'll have the original discs, but you'd follow the PC model, and have to have an install disc in the drive, to get the game to boot up.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with the next gen... amount of memory, HD space, chip/graphics etc.

In reply to

Inflatable

Since 7653 Days

Next-gen won't take 5-6 years.. Like I said, I predict a new Xbox in +/- 2010..

It will be interesting to see where the industry is moving with storage etc..

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Jin187

Since 6760 Days

Well thats what they get for using photo textures rather than real textures

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ItsOK_ImaNinja

Since 6329 Days

Yeah, I predict a new xbox by late 2009, or late 2010.

Roughly 3 years from now.

These consoles are in race to get to sub $200, which is where the REAL money is. That's when you see PS2 numbers month after month, year after year.

The Wii is kicking major ass because of casual friendly waggle and the $250 price tag, tons of people jumped on it who would normally just wait till it was cheaper.

In reply to

LEBATO

Since 7138 Days

So a bit more from another BC Employee. Kind of helps.

Posted by AlanM

In the past we've always had day and night and to do this we've had to create a duplicate set of textures for most of the buildings, obviously there is the space on the disc and the time it will take make all those night time textures. For some cities night time is important, as good as Vegas looks in the day everyone really wants to see it at night, so in PGR4 only night will be available, and if you thought Vegas and Tokyo looked good at night wait until you see what Shanghai looks like!

All the PGR3 cities have been re-lit and look better than ever, plus each weather type brings with it a different lighting setting, so Clear will be different to Fog which will be different to Rain...etc These weather types really do change the feel of the city just as much as a change from day to night, Macau in a storm is VERY different to Macau on a clear day and heavy fog changes it further! Cat and mouse around Macau Route 9 in heavy fog is fantastic by the way as is another multiplayer game mode yet to be announced! Good enough to have the art team eagerly waiting for 5.30 to come around so they can play it for an hour!

So at it’s base there is only one time of day, add to that the different weather settings and you get more variation to each of the cities than just Day and Night would give you. Trust me, they all look cool.

-Alan

In reply to

So a bit more from another BC Employee.  Kind of helps.

[quote=AlanM]
In the past we've always had day and night and to do this we've had to create a duplicate set of textures for most of the buildings, obviously there is the space on the disc and the time it will take make all those night time textures. For some cities night time is important, as good as Vegas looks in the day everyone really wants to see it at night, so in PGR4 only night will be available, and if you thought Vegas and Tokyo looked good at night wait until you see what Shanghai looks like!

All the PGR3 cities have been re-lit and look better than ever, plus each weather type brings with it a different lighting setting, so Clear will be different to Fog which will be different to Rain...etc These weather types really do change the feel of the city just as much as a change from day to night, Macau in a storm is VERY different to Macau on a clear day and heavy fog changes it further! Cat and mouse around Macau Route 9 in heavy fog is fantastic by the way as is another multiplayer game mode yet to be announced! Good enough to have the art team eagerly waiting for 5.30 to come around so they can play it for an hour!

So at it’s base there is only one time of day, add to that the different weather settings and you get more variation to each of the cities than just Day and Night would give you. Trust me, they all look cool.

-Alan[/quote]

ItsOK_ImaNinja

Since 6329 Days

Crazy that they've been using entirely different textures for night and day. For PS1 I would understand but with HDR lighting they should be able to just use that instead.

PS1 there wasn't very much dynamic lighting so to create a night track they created a night version of all their textures.

This gen that's pretty crap, but then again PGR4 already looks extremely impressive.

In reply to

Janman

Since 6954 Days

I think it is just odd what they have done with this Project Gotham Racing 4. It is good that they have created (or copy pasted) new cities. But two of the cities (London and Tokyo) have already been in three of their games (Metropolis Street Racer, PGR, PGR3) and New York has already been in two games (PGR, PGR3) and Las Vegas in one game (PGR3). Seems like they really like to recycle those cities. Those old cities really should at least include new areas. Also Nürburgring has already been in PGR3. Maybe they should have not included those old cities and add two new cities and have great day/night cycle with weather effects instead.

And AlanM talking highly of heavily fogged environments. Noooo. If it has to be only one lighting available I would prefer sunny, bright and clear. Fog is good in some games but it is not the environment I would like to be in.

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newbielives

Since 6954 Days

PGR4 could be a game about a guy running around the city picking his nose, I really don't care what the game is, if its fun or sucky, but the problem here is that DVD9 is limiting game content from developers forcing them to come up with compromises eg cutting game content.

There will always be games that fit on DVD9 but it hurts to think that developers of new generation Sandbox type games will have to cut content to fit DVD9 eg GTA4 having a much smaller playing area then GTA San Andreas.

Sure you can make huge maps like Oblivion by repeating textures and other procedural tricks but to get a the fedility of PGR3 cities on that scale, it's just not going to happen on DVD9

In reply to

LEBATO

Since 7138 Days

Posted by Janman

And AlanM talking highly of heavily fogged environments. Noooo. If it has to be only one lighting available I would prefer sunny, bright and clear. Fog is good in some games but it is not the environment I would like to be in.

No. There's only one LIGHTING available, but there are variables to that one lighting. So it's either night or day and then you get to choose fog, all kinds of rain, ice, and snow which all change the lighting a bit.

Or do you mean something else?

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Eddy186

Since 6962 Days

Posted by Jin187

Well thats what they get for using photo textures rather than real textures

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

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Inflatable

Since 7653 Days

We'll see.. Crackdown and Saints Row didn't have a problem with being on 1 DVD, and they didn't feel to small or something..

Sure HD-DVD and Blu-ray are more futureproof when it comes to storagespace, but it's just not worth the extra delay and especially the extra cost this gen.. And MS probably thought the same in 2005.. I'm glad they did, because otherwise it would have meant the Xbox 360 would have been released much later, and at a much higher price, just like the PS3.. And the games wouldn't have looked or played any different, so what's the point? Only real advantage would have been that the console would have been a lot more quiet when playing games..

Don't forget Sony has big interest in pushing 'their' Blu-ray standard onto the market.. They use the PS3 to do that, but it's not like the PS3 really needed it as a gameconsole..

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LEBATO

Since 7138 Days

I don't think Shadowrun nor Saint's Row have anywhere near as much content as PGR4 does.

In reply to

TheBeagle

Since 6621 Days

Posted by LEBATO

I don't think Shadowrun nor Saint's Row have anywhere near as much content as PGR4 does.

WTF, who brought up shadowrun ? That game is not gonna be anywhere near filling up a DVD9.

In reply to

Acert93

Since 6987 Days

Posted by newbielives

PGR4 could be a game about a guy running around the city picking his nose, I really don't care what the game is, if its fun or sucky. but the problem here is that DVD9 is limiting game content from developers forcing them to come up with compromises eg cutting game content.

]

NCAA 2008 could be a game about a guy running around the city picking his nose, I really don't care what the game is, if its fun or sucky. but the problem here is that RSX and PS3 memory limitations is limiting game graphics from developers forcing them to come up with compromises eg cutting graphical effects and cutting the framerate in half.

There will always be games that fit on DVD9 but it hurts to think that developers of new generation Sandbox type games will have to cut content to fit DVD9 eg GTA4 having a much smaller playing area then GTA San Andreas.

There will always be games that run ok on RSX and fit into the PS3 memory limitations but it hurts to think that developers of new generation Sandbox type games will have to dumb down graphics, textures, and fidelity to accomodate RSX and the PS3 system memory eg GTA4 having a much smaller playing area then GTA San Andreas and poorer graphics than on competiting systems.

Sure you can make huge maps like Oblivion by repeating textures and other procedural tricks but to get a the fedility of PGR3 cities on that scale, it's just not going to happen on DVD9

Sure you can make huge stadiums like NCAA 2008 by repeating textures and other procedural tricks but to get a the fidelity of NCAA 2008 on the 360 on that scale, it's just not going to happen on with less RAM and less graphical umpf of the RSX.

Kind of laughable that your comments can be turned around on a console that is 1 year newer and $200 more expensive. Each system has strengths and weaknesses. Many of us -- and the market in general based on the success of the PS1 and PS2 -- believe adding an extra $200 for HD Optical media was a huge mistake.

As for sandbox games, you got it all wrong. They actually are not the biggest games because of the very point no one has the time or money to create enough unique content to fill the entire world with unique content -- and even if they could, time is spent better elsewhere. Hence Oblivion uses procedural trees at creation time and tweaked them and imported them into their game onto the optical media. And Oblivion isn't even really huge -- about 4GB. And yet the game is 16 sq. mi. Games like GTA:SA were a little over 1GB.

I already discussed how PGR is using a lot of actual photos for their source material for textures and how they use a mixture of dynamic and prebaked illumination solutions. Static shadows and lights are higher quality but also much larger; dynamic shadows and lights are realtime and don't really impact optical media. So your sandbox games with day cycles aren't going to have as many texture layers in most cases.

We all knew that DVD9 would have limits. But hint: So does BDR. So will your rant begin when a single game exceeds BDR? I already heard a comment that that a dev needed to cull some media to fit into 25GB -- and Kojima himself said it was a limit. And lets not forget that BDR can have some pretty poor transfer rates.

And a gaping hole in your rant:

BDR wasn't available in 2005. Sorry, it wasn't commercially to the mass market. Actually, Sony about died a million deaths in Summer 2006 trying to even get diodes. It. was. not. possible. in. 2005.

But I am surprised not to see you ranting in all the threads about PS3 games have lesser graphics and slower framerates. IGN slammed PS3 NCAA 2008. And why not?

The PS3 is $200 more and 1 year younger.

Oh, and G80 (8800GTX) shipped in quantities in Fall 2006. Sony could have used a next gen unified shader GPU for the PS3. Instead they used technology older than the Xbox 360's.

Oh noes! Sony isn't giving us a next gen experience! Oh noes! Developers have to cut their graphics and design plans!

The consoles are about working with what you have when you release. BDR wasn't commercially viable in fall 2005. There is still a format war and the cost is far too high for a market that traditionally hits mainstream success at $199.

The PC, on the other hand, is the perfect platform for people who want the best of the best at no expense, damned be the market and damned be companies that have to make a living by selling to an install base. Damn them all I want the best, regardless of the cost and when it will be 1 uped!

In reply to

[quote=newbielives]PGR4 could be a game about a guy running around the city picking his nose, I really don't care what the game is, if its fun or sucky. but the problem here is that DVD9 is limiting game content from developers forcing them to come up with compromises eg cutting game content.[/quote]]

NCAA 2008 could be a game about a guy running around the city picking his nose, I really don't care what the game is, if its fun or sucky. but the problem here is that RSX and PS3 memory limitations is limiting game graphics from developers forcing them to come up with compromises eg cutting graphical effects and cutting the framerate in half.

[quote]There will always be games that fit on DVD9 but it hurts to think that developers of new generation Sandbox type games will have to cut content to fit DVD9 eg GTA4 having a much smaller playing area then GTA San Andreas.[/quote]

There will always be games that run ok on RSX and fit into the PS3 memory limitations but it hurts to think that developers of new generation Sandbox type games will have to dumb down graphics, textures, and fidelity to accomodate RSX and the PS3 system memory eg GTA4 having a much smaller playing area then GTA San Andreas and poorer graphics than on competiting systems.

[quote]Sure you can make huge maps like Oblivion by repeating textures and other procedural tricks but to get a the fedility of PGR3 cities on that scale, it's just not going to happen on DVD9[/quote]

Sure you can make huge stadiums like NCAA 2008 by repeating textures and other procedural tricks but to get a the fidelity of NCAA 2008 on the 360 on that scale, it's just not going to happen on with less RAM and less graphical umpf of the RSX.

Kind of laughable that your comments can be turned around on a console that is 1 year newer and $200 more expensive. Each system has strengths and weaknesses. Many of us -- and the market in general based on the success of the PS1 and PS2 -- believe adding an extra $200 for HD Optical media was a huge mistake.

As for sandbox games, you got it all wrong. They actually are not the biggest games because of the very point no one has the time or money to create enough unique content to fill the entire world with unique content -- and even if they could, time is spent better elsewhere. Hence Oblivion uses procedural trees at creation time and tweaked them and imported them into their game onto the optical media. And Oblivion isn't even really huge -- about 4GB. And yet the game is 16 sq. mi. Games like GTA:SA were a little over 1GB.

I already discussed how PGR is using a lot of actual photos for their source material for textures and how they use a mixture of dynamic and prebaked illumination solutions. Static shadows and lights are higher quality but also much larger; dynamic shadows and lights are realtime and don't really impact optical media. So your sandbox games with day cycles aren't going to have as many texture layers in most cases.

We all knew that DVD9 would have limits. But hint: So does BDR. So will your rant begin when a single game exceeds BDR? I already heard a comment that that a dev needed to cull some media to fit into 25GB -- and Kojima himself said it was a limit. And lets not forget that BDR can have some pretty poor transfer rates.

And a gaping hole in your rant:

BDR wasn't available in 2005. Sorry, it wasn't commercially to the mass market. Actually, Sony about died a million deaths in Summer 2006 trying to even get diodes. It. was. not. possible. in. 2005.

But I am surprised not to see you ranting in all the threads about PS3 games have lesser graphics and slower framerates. IGN slammed PS3 NCAA 2008. And why not?

The PS3 is $200 more and 1 year younger.

Oh, and G80 (8800GTX) shipped in quantities in Fall 2006. Sony could have used a next gen unified shader GPU for the PS3. Instead they used technology older than the Xbox 360's.

Oh noes! Sony isn't giving us a next gen experience! Oh noes! Developers have to cut their graphics and design plans!

The consoles are about working with what you have when you release. BDR wasn't commercially viable in fall 2005. There is still a format war and the cost is far too high for a market that traditionally hits mainstream success at $199.

The PC, on the other hand, is the perfect platform for people who want the best of the best at no expense, damned be the market and damned be companies that have to make a living by selling to an install base. Damn them all I want the best, regardless of the cost and when it will be 1 uped!

The fans have spoken. Concerning the graphics of the Halo 3 Beta: "There's so many little effects and things going on that make this game pretty much 2nd only to Gears at the moment."

LEBATO

Since 7138 Days

Posted by TheBeagle

WTF, who brought up shadowrun ? That game is not gonna be anywhere near filling up a DVD9.

Wow, I must have been possessed while typing that. He said Crackdown and Saint's Row, my bad.

In reply to

TheBeagle

Since 6621 Days

Posted by LEBATO

Wow, I must have been possessed while typing that. He said Crackdown and Saint's Row, my bad.

Ah ok. Something wasnt right there.

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