PGR4 flying under the radar?

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Well petty much every "developer" out there is saying the oppisite to you Acert. (and seeing as you aren't a developer, I will believe what they say)

There are reasons why companies like Capcom say the development cost's on the PS3 are too high. (not the first time we have heard it)

Yes 360 may have better tools but that is only a small part of the reason.

Juggling 8 balls is harder than juggling 3 (or 6) especially when its 1 beach ball and 7 pingpong balls.
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Marumaro for the WIN !!

GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!
GriftGFX
Inscrit depuis 7004 Jours
There will still be a natural progression in the quality of software on the 360, in part due to the tri-core nature of the CPU. The Xbox 360 is no PC. That's not a good comparison anyway -- since PC games also benefit from further optimization. Look at Call of Duty as an example.. poor DX9 optimization resulted in very poor performance on early DX9 hardware -- Call of Duty 4 actually runs better by comparison.

But anyway.. this thread was far more interesting when we were talking about electric cars.
En réponse à
Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
I was comparing the Xbox to a PC not the 360.

Anyway, yes you are right there is obviously going to be a growth in programming on a tri-cored processor.

But i still believe the PS3 has more room for growth due to its non symetrical nature.

But lets get back on topic yea ?
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Marumaro for the WIN !!

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Inscrit depuis 6975 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
Well petty much every "developer" out there is saying the oppisite to you Acert. (and seeing as you aren't a developer, I will believe what they say)
O'really? Where do you think I get my information from?

I think when I get some more time I will go quite a couple developers on the issues of multi-threading and the 360 to show you how your "every" is way off. Heck, go google Capcom--whom you reference--and their comments on threading the 360 GPU.
Juggling 8 balls is harder than juggling 3 (or 6) especially when its 1 beach ball and 7 pingpong balls.
I never said the PS3 was easier than the 360. Only pointing out the analogy and parallels to the PS2/Xbox are broken and that the 360 has a lot more overhead than the Xbox did and the PS3 is much easier to tap into than the PS2.
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My Blog: http://www.NextGenThinkTank.com

GriftGFX - He can also<br>ban your ass!
GriftGFX
Inscrit depuis 7004 Jours
Posté par Acert93
I never said the PS3 was easier than the 360. Only pointing out the analogy and parallels to the PS2/Xbox are broken and that the 360 has a lot more overhead than the Xbox did and the PS3 is much easier to tap into than the PS2.
And I've heard plenty of developers say the same.. so.. trust Jollipop to take something out of context... ;)
En réponse à
Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Either way we won't be seeing a huge jump it quality like in some PS2 games.

PGR4 has a few more features over PGR3 but its not like night and day.

I never took anything out of context i was trying to make a point which Acert latched onto the coat tails of.

I just think that there is more to learn with asymetrical programming than symertrical. (mainly because you can move stuff around onto any thread and it will work when programming for the Xenon, the same can't be said for the Cell at least not from the PPE to the SPU's)

Plus you are dealing with small pools of SPU memory, which isn't even a concern for the 360.
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Marumaro for the WIN !!

PlumbDrumb - Still drinking
PlumbDrumb
Inscrit depuis 6998 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
Either way we won't be seeing a huge jump it quality like in some PS2 games.

PGR4 has a few more features over PGR3 but its not like night and day.
Actually it's like Summer and Winter. har har.
En réponse à

you're banned.

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Inscrit depuis 6975 Jours
Again, Jolli, I don't think you understand how computationally expensive stuff like soft shadows with little aliasing is. There is a reason why games like Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed have shadows that look like total crap. They are very expensive -- because they are very high quality.

Those weather effects don't come cheap either--especially when you are mapping realtime reflections onto them.

Which is another HUGE jump in QUALITY. The cars reflect realtime content--namely cars and spectators.

These are all quality issues. Toss in a 50% increase in pixels, and PGR4 is easily pushing out a sizable increase in quality.

Like I said before, the issue is diminishing returns in terms of what casual consumers percieve. Realtime reflections and soft shadows solve HUGELY ass-tastic issues that harm the quality of games -- but they aren't whiz-bang lense flares-bloom obvious.

The cost of the last mile is indeed heavy. 90% of reality is easier to obtain than the last 10%.
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My Blog: http://www.NextGenThinkTank.com

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Well seeing as i said this the other day, I guess i do understand it.

But it still doesn't change the fact that the difference isn't a huge one.
En réponse à

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Inscrit depuis 6975 Jours
Ok, seeing as artifact free soft shadows and realtime reflections aren't a "jump in quality" and you are tanking this with the PS2/Cell talk, please humor us: What graphical jumps will we be seeing from the all might Cell that are a "huge jump" in quality like seen in PS2 games.

The fact Bizarre did some computationally expensive stuff, as noted above, means developers are harnessing a lot more power in 2007 than they were in 2008. If they chose they could have taken that investment, kept the core of PGR3, and spent it elsewhere. "Where" is the question though. Textures & poly count are already at diminishing returns (a 2x fold in geometry would hardly go noticed--heh, they already bumped it up a ton on Shanghai and some cannot see it) so I am curious where these jumps will come in.

One of the reasons the PS2 gen saw large jumps was because the PS2 came in low--indeed, a number of DC games looked better. When your game is full of aliasing (texture and edge) and is using low quality assets it is going to look crappy.

Its like Gun to Gears of War.
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My Blog: http://www.NextGenThinkTank.com

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Acert what the hell are you talking about, seriously I don't come here to argue with you, so get off my back and be a mod.

I've tried to drop this pointless debate twice and yet you still continue with you sharp and condescending attitude, what really is the point ?
En réponse à

Marumaro for the WIN !!

LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Inscrit depuis 7126 Jours
@Jolli,

I think you forget that PGR1 was running at 60fps and PGR2 at 30fps. Surely that allowed them to do a few more things. That was a trade off with PGR2 (a tradeoff I don't care about), with PGR4 there were no tradeoffs, only gains.

I think we'll start seeing this if we see high grade sequels (other than sports) on this console. MAYBE MAYBE FM3....but I lost faith as far as graphics go with these guys. Maybe another PDZ, or a perhaps Banjo compared to Kameo. I guess we'll see. Perhaps the next Splinter Cell too. We'll see.
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Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Yea I'm not saying there wasn't advancements, they are there and they are visable, but not by what I would have expected from a sequel.

Perhaps it came too soon after PGR3.

I'm not the only person around (or in this thread) that thinks there isn't a huge gap between the 2 games.
En réponse à

Marumaro for the WIN !!

LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Inscrit depuis 7126 Jours
Posté par Jollipop
I'm not the only person around (or in this thread) that thinks there isn't a huge gap between the 2 games.
Oh I know that, even some reviewers think there isn't a huge gap.
En réponse à

Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Inscrit depuis 7126 Jours
More on topic, here are some Photomode pics I took.

















En réponse à

Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

ManThatYouFear
ManThatYouFear
Inscrit depuis 6948 Jours
Acert maybe the mumbo jumbo of the shadows AA ...blah blah blah main mean something to you/me/others but to the masses it means sweet fuck all, and to them and to many others the leap is small.

i think that is what jolli is trying to say
En réponse à

My comments on this game/machine been good or bad does not mean i like/hate the machine i am not a fan nor a hater, just i have a opinion and wish to share it.

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
Inscrit depuis 6975 Jours
Posté par ManThatYouFear
Acert maybe the mumbo jumbo of the shadows AA ...blah blah blah main mean something to you/me/others but to the masses it means sweet fuck all, and to them and to many others the leap is small.

i think that is what jolli is trying to say
No, Jolli makes blatant statements and doesn't like getting called on them. I will never forget the classic, "RSX has 2x the shader ops, so is faster" non-sense. He even ignored quotes from PS3 exclusive developers who said it was a useless marketing metric. When he says stuff like, "Well petty much every "developer" out there is saying the oppisite to you Acert" -- when in fact many developers aren't saying what he is saying -- is just another example.

Like I mentioned before, the issue is diminishing returns. That was MY point. Quality soft shadows, realtime reflections (even FM2 lacks these), and 50% more resolution are a huge performance sucker -- and do, indeed, improve quality.

PGR4 is a huge leap in performance/improvement (which was the PS3 tie-in) as well as quality. Visual impact is another issue, which leads into the diminishing returns issue. The PS4/Xbox3 will have it even tough, as a 1M poly car doesn't look substantially better than a 100K poly car.

Oddly, reviews tend to be at odds. Some think it looks amazing, others not so. Interestingly IGN refused to answer my email -- they accuse if of having horrible aliasing, which it doesn't in 720p. And no one has yet identified a better looking 360 racer. Part of the problem was until PGR4, 2 years in, PGR3 was still the best looking 360 racer. And most consumers cannot appreciate the amount of work, detail, and performance required to eek out the last 10% of visuals. Better shadows are very expensive, and are a huge jump in quality.

But it is like edge aliasing--most consumers don't care. Hence why games like AC and ME, both priased, have HORRIBLE shadow aliasing. A lot of consumers cannot see it, and when fixed it doesn't matter to them. So developers move on.

But that shouldn't stop us from confusing consumer apathy with technical quality. Whether it impacts your perception of visual impact depends on whether you find it freaking annoying seeing huge aliased black chunks crawling across your screen.

Calling it now: next gen, graphics really won't matter. Art will, and gamers will confuse the concept of having an opinion about art (like/dislike) and the quality of the art direction (more concrete and less subjective, even if you dislike the result).

@ Jolli: I am a poster as well as a mod. I can post in a thread if I wish.
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My Blog: http://www.NextGenThinkTank.com

deftangel - Hot stuff!
deftangel
Inscrit depuis 6872 Jours
So basically we all agree that Bizarre made some big technological jumps but visually it doesn't look a proportionate amount better because the upgrades were technical in nature and spent on stuff that most people don't notice.

Lovely!

I heard there were no cone challenges though.....surely that's a total downgrade, why?! :(
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XBL/PSN: deftangel. Views are my own and not representative of my employers. Boulets aren't the end of the world, you will get over them! Reading and constructive discussion classes are available, enquire via PM :)

Scarface
Scarface
Inscrit depuis 6991 Jours
Posté par LEBATO
More on topic, here are some Photomode pics I took.

some very nice photos there Lebato. (those 2 especially).

i'll be getting this game tomorrow. hope some of my old favourite tracks will be in there.
En réponse à
TheBeagle
TheBeagle
Inscrit depuis 6610 Jours
I picked this game up and have only done a couple of races but I can safely say the game does looks better. I noticed that there is an achievement for creating a 3D screenshot. That sounds very interesting. Im gonna go check that out.
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Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6887 Jours
Ce message est en mode Boulet Time (TM). Pour l'afficher, cliquez ici
Posté par Acert93
@ Jolli: I am a poster as well as a mod. I can post in a thread if I wish.
Uh yea i'm well aware of this, and never said you couldn't, but I just think your position here allows you to get away with saying more than most, especailly when it comes to being rude. (kind of a bit like double standards)

Marumaro for the WIN !!

deftangel - Hot stuff!
deftangel
Inscrit depuis 6872 Jours
Ce message est en mode Boulet Time (TM). Pour l'afficher, cliquez ici
Just like on some forums you'd be banned without question for publically slagging off the mods regardless of whether you were right or wrong. Besides, you really didn't need to bring this up again a week later, moreover after you said you tried to drop the discussion twice!

I don't think having rude mods would be terribly good for business so no, I don't think there's double standards. If you've a problem with one of the mods, PM another one but lets keep it to PGR in here from now on.

XBL/PSN: deftangel. Views are my own and not representative of my employers. Boulets aren't the end of the world, you will get over them! Reading and constructive discussion classes are available, enquire via PM :)

LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Inscrit depuis 7126 Jours
Posté par Scarface
some very nice photos there Lebato. (those 2 especially).

i'll be getting this game tomorrow. hope some of my old favourite tracks will be in there.
Thanks, I also think those are the best by far. The DBR's being a favorite, the best out there!
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Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

Acert93 - Mr. Bad Cop
Acert93
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En réponse à

My Blog: http://www.NextGenThinkTank.com

Inflatable
Inflatable
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Posté par Acert93
http://gameplanets.blogspot.com/2007/10/pgr4-vs-pgr3-graphics-comparison.html

Comparison shots.
PGR4 obviously has more detailed textures..
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