I was kidding. There's no need for the first person camera to take a back seat to anything. Also, first person camera != first person shooter. There are still plenty of third person games regardless.

No, I play plenty of games. I love RPG's (note: not JRPG's, real RPG's ;P)--I love fighting games--I love great stealth games (Thief)--I love fighting games and that culture perhaps more than any other genre. I just happen to particularly enjoy FPS these days because of the easy access to good competition, which is one of gamings biggest appeals for me, personally.

There aren't too many FPS though.. especially good single player games.. and Deus Ex is definitely a genre-bending experience. Much more so than Bioshock, from what I've seen so far. I still have a huge backlog of FPS campaigns to play, Bioshock being one of them.. but I still welcome Deus Ex 3 to the party.

Oblivion/Morrowind. Might and Magic franchise. I wouldn't count Condemned as an FPS either, but that's because I never touched a gun in that game. Riddick is as much of a stealth game as it is FPS too -- would you call MGS or Splinter Cell third person shooters, just because they have guns in them? Thief.. and.. Myst (man Myst V is awesome) and all the Myst-like games.. and.. I dunno. I won't comment on Deus Ex's genre.

Uh, I'm sure there are loads more.. but that's good enough for now.

For a lot of (old?) console gamers the anti FPS stance is more or less DNA coded. I think what may change later on is how you rationalise it.

I think there's a case to be made for world interaction being very coarse and simplified in FPS, and while that is changing somewhat it's still somewhat true, but I also think that games make more of the perspective now than ever, especially in terms of immersion as worlds gain fidelity and believable characters that approach *you* and speak to you in a convincing fashion.

To be honest, nowadays I often find myself frustrated at the disconnect third person forces me into for no reason. I mean when you take cover and shoot people in the face in Mass Effect, the perspective makes sense, but when you just wanna soak up the atmosphere on the Citadel or experience walking through the slums on Omega, having some rotating, in that context mechanically useless avatar between you and actually feeling like you're *there* is actually kinda disappointing to me.

Mass Effect is already super evocative of the first Deus Ex for me, so having that return while retaining the ability to actually fully experience that world through - effectively - the eyes of your character is pretty paramount for me.


Of course, when a game attempts to do more and justifies the third person perspective with increased world interaction, that's a completely different story.

Meh. Not really. Most third person console games are very coarse and simplified compared to (the original) Deus Ex.

I don't mean meta layer complexity, that's regardless of your world interaction. I mean specifically world interaction and stand by my point.

And I still think you're wrong. How is the world interaction in something like Deus Ex, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, Elder Scrolls, System Shock 2, Thief et al. simplified compared to third person games in the same genres? If anything the camera improves immersion significantly. I don't mean "meta layer complexity" either, because.. well I don't think it actually holds much meaning in the context you're using it.

It does if you compare interacting with keypads and grabbing a ledge in Tomb Raider.

The thing about third person is that the character state is plainly obvious, and you can therefore change that state much more dynamically. Mirror's Edge struggles with incredibly simple world interaction despite the fact that they're made sub Mario 64 levels of coarse.

What people that are attached to the third person perspective often gravitate towards is that increase in world interaction, and with games going out of the first person perspective we've actually seen mechanics emerge in the FPS space that werent there before for obvious reasons.

Even though they are getting better at it by having a somewhat elaborate representation of your physical presence, FPS even struggle with simple melee systems that in a game like Devil May Cry can be REDICULOUSLY elaborate. FPS are by comparison mechanically infinitely more simple on a core level, and the way your avatar interacts with the world - which is what I was refering to more than anything - is also grossly simplified simply to avoid confusion and frustration.

By meta layer complexity in relation to Deus Ex I'm talking about everything from its choice mechanics to its stats, inventory system, your hacking abilities et cetera. Deus Ex is a complex game alright, but its world interaction is - like FPS generally are - about drawing a line from your crosshair to an element in the world and having something happen. It's almost impossible to even build on that the way the first punch in a combo offers a platform for the next, or the way bouncing off a turtle in Mario sets you up for x amount of world interaction related choices, game design wise.

Well if you're talking about 3D platforming, sure, but show me one third person RPG that has the level of world interaction that something like Fallout 3 has. Even in modern terms, I still think you're wrong if you compare these games to others in the same genre they're in. Your Tomb Raider example is good enough, but very few people have ever tried to make a game like Tomb Raider from the first person perspective. I still think you're over simplifying the issue while simultaneously over complicating it.

You're on to me! *packs bags and jumps out the window* :D

Joking (and uncanny accuracy) aside I am talking about all genres associated with the respective perspective, and their inherent capacity for successfully employing/conveying world interaction. There are countless third person *things* that don't use that fact to any meaningful degree (although I think Alone in The Dark camera angles for instance is a valid use, having things happen unbeknownst to your character but visible in the periphery by you and so forth) and that was part of my initial post on the subject. I think way too many games use third person perspective by default when they probably "should" use first person to achieve what they set out to do.

But I do feel that the reluctancy to enbrace first person for a lot of people is the simplification of their physical role that's associated with it. I sincerely do think that's a valid case to make. That's why I put "old" in there, because old console games didn't have light switches to turn on and off in a room, they had a fucking.. mutated ninja crab or something to PUNCH IN THE FACE, holes in the ground to JUMP OVER, ladders to CLIMB. Megaman had different powers to conjure up trampolines or platforms, Samus could bounce off walls or roll up into a ball and explode herself through passages, Nathan "Rad" Spencer had a grapple hook to soar through levels with, the Prince of Persia could grab on to ledges, gain a sense of momentum et cetera. Those games were decidedly physical.

Doom had atmosphere coming out of its every hole, and I almost got nightmares playing it, but it's plain to see what the lack of an on screen representation of you did to your "physical role", and continues to do to this day.