FireWire - IEEE 1394
FireWire
Inscrit depuis 6950 Jours
I agree with you up to a point. I for example actually liked the demo and would love to play the full game but I feel the controls will limit the game. I mean it's just frustrating that your character feels as flexible as a steel door.
And again I understand that the no shooting while running is a gameplay decision and not necessarily control issue.
I do feel that the turning and strafing option are limiting the player and are an issue that should've been addressed. But now that we've heard about the "action" mode, I think I have to stop bitching and just enjoy the game for what it is...
En réponse à

"Though I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil, for I am the evilest motherf*cker in the valley"

Megido
Megido
Inscrit depuis 6275 Jours
Simon: well Prime is, to me, a pretty bad example since it would have worked just as well with halo-style controls. What set Prime apart form other first person games was taht it was so slow paced and had a focus on exploration rather than shooting the living poot out of everything that moves.

As for RE5 though i'll probably go with the action type controls, i feel the game will work better that way and i don't really see it influencing gameplay THAT much. I would have totally bought the game without this option as well but having it there is a nice compromise i think...both audiences should be happy.
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Memories, they have a habit of sticking to you like...like a pube on a pipe.

Jin187
Jin187
Inscrit depuis 6694 Jours
Just played the UK demo, the game will be my GOTY for sure, RE4 was one of the best games i've ever played and this looks to be no exception. I simply cannot wait for this masterpiece to be released.

All this shooting and running talk is just nonsense. I'm actually glad that people wont buy it because of the controls, it just means much less moaning when the game actually comes out.

The fans of the game who actually appreciate what capcom have created, can actually use this thread effectively without having plough through 100's of messages from people asking why the game doesnt play like Gears of War.
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Resident Evil 5 is the best looking game I have EVER seen!!

Ronsauce
Ronsauce
Inscrit depuis 6935 Jours
Posté par PennyArcade
I keep reading about "sluggish controls," but let's go with "obstinate" instead. It's more literary and more accurate - I would have settled for either, honestly, so this is a real treat. I would say that sluggish controls represent a technological or design concern that manifests in the simulation's inability to reflect your will. That's not the case with Resident Evil 5, or 4, or (I would say) any Resident Evil ever. The controls work precisely as they were designed to: to make you mindful of your play. If you don't like it, and certainly that is your prerogative, at least have the self-awareness to recognize it as the twisted, petulant sense of adolescent entitlement that it is.
Well said!
Posté par Jin187
The fans of the game who actually appreciate what capcom have created, can actually use this thread effectively without having plough through 100's of messages from people asking why the game doesnt play like Gears of War.
No kidding eh? When I used to be more of an asshole, I'd go into jrpg threads and bitch about how they were turn-based. I then realized I was being fucking annoying. These RE5 threads remind of how I used to be.
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"If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate." - Zapp Brannigan

Tinks
Tinks
Inscrit depuis 6879 Jours
Posté par TheBeagle
My friend has never played any of the past resident evils so I told him to check out the new demo. He thought the controls were absolutely crap. Which is completely understandable because frankly, they are. Why should a game have to use this false method of inducing fear? I welcome this new control scheme.

Ps. Dead Space was scary.
I already compared this game to Resident Evil 4/5, I'll find it later and repost it for this
They're similar but everything in the game is completely different than Resident Evil, even though they are related. It's control methods work for what is in Dead Space. Resident Evil has much different elements that require a different approach.
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blmbox
blmbox
Inscrit depuis 6281 Jours
I played the demo again today, and I'm starting to warm to it a bit more. The game is a blast in co-op, and I love how you feel completely isolated and outnumbered practically all the time.
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"This is our decision, to live fast and die young. We've got the vision, now let's have some fun."

Tinks
Tinks
Inscrit depuis 6879 Jours
Posté par Tinks
It's no more cheap than having a child run across a hallway in front of you in Fatal Frame, or a creature's shadow scurry across the screen from behind in Dead Space. Or having dogs pop out from windows in old Resident Evil games. Dead Space is a game that pretty much used every trick and movie technique in the book.
Back to RE4, example...
For me I would get freaked the fuck out hearing a chainsaw and that scream. Half the time I would just fucking run like I would in real life. The last thing I would do would be to dart around trying to aim my gun where ever I could trying to find him. I would scream in real life, and fucking book it, just like I do while playing. That to me is more realistic. It's either run or pan around to try and see where he is. If you could run and gun you probably wouldn't run away from anything anymore.
If you can run and gun it would essentially break this game. Why hide when you can easily maneuver all your enemies? Why use objects to block doors or widows? Why even implement all these things to make the action more strategic and essentially a mind game? Why run to rooftops? Do you even care that you have to open some drawer or closet with enemies nearby? Is your heart still racing when you are using all these strategies, or is it completely calm because the challenge of the game has been hampered by being able to shoot at any time?
Dead Space has intelligent creatures, so more maneuverability without sacrificing tension is possible. RE is more horror based with generally stupid slow moving zombies, so maneuverability is able to be lost to create a more thrilling experience.
RE is also outdoors as much, if not more than indoor. Dead Space is indoors predominately, so sound is more accessible, as is lighting and camera effects. So therefor Dead Space has the advantage of controlling things even more for you. That's why it's freaky as fuck.
RE4 doesn't have that, it's outdoors and sounds are more natural and what you are used to. Something else needs to be utilized to create the thrill and tension.
The list goes on and on. People are comparing Dead Space, which is an incredible game and my favorite of last year as well. But there are loads of things that make it a different game than RE4 or 5 could ever be
En réponse à
KORNdog
KORNdog
Inscrit depuis 6354 Jours
yes dead space uses cheap scares, just like all survival horror games do, but whats present in dead space that makes it scary, is a genuinly scary atmosphere.

same goes for silent hill or siren, even fatal frame. for those games, it isnt about what you can see. it's the stuff you cant see that freaks you out. noises in the darkness. a generally quite oppressive "i really dont want to be here" situation. and resident evil doesnt have that. it has cannon fodder enemies running at you in frequent succession....yes thats intense, but its about as scary as playing gears of war or halo, in other words, not very.

and thats why im no longer a big fan of the resi series anymore since it has gotten progressively more and more action oriented. with the major jump being between 3 and 4 obviously.

but at the end of the day there is NOTHING to be arguing about concerning controls anymore. those that want to use the old controls can, those that want to be able to "run and gun" have the option to do that also (although honestly i dont think you could considering the way the game is structured, since there is a lack of ammo and items, no matter which control scheme you choose)

all the improved controls do is alow me to CONTROL it the way i want to...in terms of the core gameplay, it hasnt changed at all. you will still have to manage items via the crappy in-game inventory system, you will still be low on ammo and items 90% of the time, you will still have to protect sheeva and you'll still get the intense thrill of being chased by 30 rabid black guys and an executioner....only now. control wise its not as much of a chore.

a games level of intensity and ability to scary you shouldnt come from the controls, but from the game itself....it shoud be about atmosphere and creating a certain mood (which is what dead space and silent hill and siren etc do). sliggish controls, whether they be a design decision or not, should not be the reason a came is intense. at least not in my opinion.
En réponse à
Tinks
Tinks
Inscrit depuis 6879 Jours
Posté par KORNdog
a games level of intensity and ability to scary you shouldnt come from the controls, but from the game itself....it shoud be about atmosphere and creating a certain mood (which is what dead space and silent hill and siren etc do). sliggish controls, whether they be a design decision or not, should not be the reason a came is intense. at least not in my opinion.
Controls ARE the game though. Controls are just as much the game itself as any of those other details you mentioned. It creates intensity and fear as well.
Of course a game based on zombies is going to have hordes of enemies running at you. That's what anything zombie-horror related is going to do (movies and games). Also anything zombie related is always going to be more action oriented than scary. When was the last time you saw a zombie movie?
The atmosphere is beautifully done in Resident Evil 4 and 5. Again like I said, being in an indoor environment is much more controlled and gives you those feelings you have really easy. If you're outside you're not going to feel that, which is where these new Resident Evil's have gone.

I wasn't saying that anything about cheap scares is bad. It was in reference to something being discussed in the original thread.
En réponse à
TheBeagle
TheBeagle
Inscrit depuis 6555 Jours
They have made it even harder for themselves by having levels set in broad daylight. Nothing about the demo was "scary". The fight at the end with the chainsaw dude was fucking tense though.
En réponse à

Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Has it been five years? Six? It seems like a lifetime.

Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6833 Jours
Posté par TheBeagle
The fight at the end with the chainsaw dude was fucking tense though.
Yea but only because, he is very fast, by the time you run away and turn around hes right in your face again.

I find Shiva to be quite game breaking for these kind of fights though, the ammount of times I have to save her sorry ass is just retarded, It makes me wonder just how much of a burden she will become in the final game, getting Gameover because she is dumb is not my idea of fun.
En réponse à

Marumaro for the WIN !!

Tinks
Tinks
Inscrit depuis 6879 Jours
If you have a friend, I think it would more than make up for any poor AI

There should have been an option to go it alone though, no doubt about it
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Jollipop
Jollipop
Inscrit depuis 6833 Jours
Posté par Tinks
If you have a friend, I think it would more than make up for any poor AI

There should have been an option to go it alone though, no doubt about it
Well yea but RE has never been about Co-op for me, I think the sense of feeling helpless is lost even more when you have someone to save your ass.
En réponse à

Marumaro for the WIN !!

SimonM7 - The other mod's bitch
SimonM7
Inscrit depuis 6973 Jours
I'm not really as passionate about this controlling the way it does as I appear, but I do think the matter has a wider significance that I do feel rather strongly about.

I won't even take a side here and call one control scheme better than the other, but I just think it's way too common to reduce games to what you see on the screen. In my opinion, a game should be built deliberately from the ground up.

I'm just gonna tell the weak hearted to not read any further right now because this'll get pretty long I think.


Essentially, nowadays we pretty much take for granted that our body as the player is represented in some capacity on the screen. Basic movement and actions are mapped to buttons, and just as little as we'd like to wake up one morning and find that waving our arms actually makes us kick with our legs, we rue the thought of having that right trigger do anything other than fire a gun if our on screen persona is armed.

Virtually all genres today share this to an extent because more than ever before games are about realising something you as a person can do. You're skating, shooting, racing, fighting, saving the world, running over hookers, stopping and popping or killing Ares. We've reduced the gameplay part to as efficiently as possible getting the desired result on screen; a result we are all too familiar with.

So where do games go from there? Bigger set pieces, more believable characters, more engrossing worlds more gripping stories, a greater sense of speed a geater sense of danger a greater sense of fear, excitement, loss, victory. To do so we employ prettier pictures, more beautiful music, more immersive sound, better voice acting, better written scripts.

A great gaming experience is often described like "it felt just like a movie" or "a blockbuster". The ups and downs are many times determined by scale and narrative and how much you identify with your avatar. It's clear that what differentiates one game from another is surprisingly similar to the difference between two movies. Characters, story, or generally how convicing it is in its production. Aureal and visual input.


But the thing is, even though we've basically standardised how we move around in these worlds to the point where they could just as well rename RT/R1/Z the "Fire" button like they did on old joysticks, controls are still the most powerful tool with which to control the player's emotions. It is also the sole aspect of gaming that is absolutely unique - the ace up its sleeve if you will.

Yet it seems people expect every game to be a skin pulled over a stock skeleton, or that the next story and world are decorations to hang on the already established controls tree. I might be old fashioned but I'm kinda keen on the whole "what matters is on the inside" thing, and inside a game is where I reckon you find its identity.

I was totally thrown by the way Halo 3 just up and chucked its reload button to the Right Bumper. Sure, Gears had its reload button up there, but that was Gears, that was its unique "fingerprint". People think Halo is a green dude with a helmet, but that's not true. At least for me it isn't.

Megido said (or you said if you're reading this) earlier that Metroid Prime would've worked with FPS controls. See that's not really my point, I don't feel that "whatever a game works with" is "fine". That's like saying a person would work fine with a different personality. Of course he or she would but it wouldn't be the same person.

I should probably stress that I'm not suggesting a game's identity comes from its controls exclusively, but just like a face or the colour of someone's eyes play a part in defining that person, the enemy design, which way a corridor turns or how a story ends is really not what's ultimately of greatest importance to a game.

At least not for me.

So when I can't strafe in RE5 that is part of what that game is on the most fundamental, core level. It's a fingerprint of many fingerprints. It's a butterfly effect that in the end has me feeling a certain way as I'm going up against the final boss. A grand, beautiful, significant difference on the smallest and biggest scale that only a game could possibly achieve - something Ebert with his movies will never grasp.

If we sand these things down to something smooth and predictable, we're being unfair to the very nature of games.

I'm not saying RE5 controls are better or worse than Gears, but I salute that there is a difference and I pray there will always be a pair of steel testicles hanging between the legs of people who can make that happen.
En réponse à
KORNdog
KORNdog
Inscrit depuis 6354 Jours
So where do games go from there? Bigger set pieces, more believable characters, more engrossing worlds more gripping stories, a greater sense of speed a geater sense of danger a greater sense of fear, excitement, loss, victory. To do so we employ prettier pictures, more beautiful music, more immersive sound, better voice acting, better written scripts.
THAT is what games should be imo. look at how every single FPS since halo has gone up against halo's control scheme and being deemed WORSE because of it...thats not for shits and giggles, that was because it was the most fluid form of control on consoles for an FPS post goldeneye. and as a result 90% of games used that control scheme, and those that didnt where cast aside becasue of it. and imo thats how it should work. i want the best controls for that specific genre that gives me the MOST control in the simplest, easiest and most intuative manner. as for the rest of the game, THAT is where its identity lies. becasue at the end of the day, a game centres around shooting should have a fast, responsive control scheme to cope with what it throws at you, and resident evil 4/5 doesnt/didnt.

you said yourself that we expect our onscreen avatars to control as closely to a real life person an possible be it skating, shooting, saving the world etc. and thats where resi not only fumbles, but smashes its face aginst the cold hard concrete. no human moves like chris does. you dont walk 20 paces, stop, turn, stop, then move again, it isnt natural and it certainly isnt intuative. and in cases like that i'd gave my left testicle (ok maybe not) to get a more immediate and responsive control scheme. controls MAY be a "fingerprint" of a games identity, but it certainly isnt a major one. if a control scheme works REALLY well to a point where it is praised by practically everyone (halo for example) then i expect every other developer who are making similar games to use something similar if not the same. its the reason why GTA STILL gets hate throw at its control scheme, because at the end of the day, it just ISNT very good.

and thats what it boils down to with me. it's either good, fast, responsive and intuative control, or its not...and if its not, why not....enter resident evil 4/5.
En réponse à
LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Inscrit depuis 7072 Jours
@Korn, thanks for that video, now the game is instantly a possible buy. Besides that I also tried the co-op which worked out pretty good although I feel bad for anyone playing it on a tv less than 37"
Posté par Tinks
Controls are considered dated now because it creates a different challenge for the player that they don't want to deal with it
lol, that is ridiculous. Of course I don't want to deal with it, it's not even about making gears like (this game is FAR from it), just because you walk it doesn't mean it has been converted into something else, or a gears clone (Simon!).

Besides that I found another retarded problem with the game (which hopefully is fixed with the "action" controls). Please tell me how this is not a problem. I made the mistake of shooting the boss of level two in the demo with the rifle which then resulted in a six minute long reloading animation in which I am completely stuck and helpless, and thus die.

How fun is that? None. There is absolutely no reason for that to be, that is bad design. Sure I can get used to it, but it doesn't make it any less retarded and less dated, and less of a dumb decision (of the designers and apparently me for shooting the rifle a little too close to the boss).
En réponse à

Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

Tinks
Tinks
Inscrit depuis 6879 Jours
Why would you use a sniper rifle on a boss? Is the sniper rifle bolt action or automatic? If it's bolt action that's your own foolish mistake. No bolt action rifle is fast
Regardless, the sniper rifle is generally a bad idea on any boss
En réponse à
Megido
Megido
Inscrit depuis 6275 Jours
Simon: Well, what i want form a game is fluent controls that work well and if a game offers good controls, that makes me feel like i am indeed in control, then that is good...no matter how many times it's been done before. You shouldn't try to be different just for the sake of being different. Being different and good at the same time takes a lot of work and though and pulling it off half-assed is not good in any sense. This is not directed at RE5 or any game in particular, i just think that because something has been used before doesn't have to mean it's bad. All games borrows elements form other games all the time, and there's nothing wrong with that. If it aint broken don't fix it...unless you happen to be an engineer with a good new idea.

Actually this whole argument about controls reminds me of something that happen way back when my moms friends were visiting and they had their kids with them. I had the good ol genesis back then and one of the games i liked the most and frequently played was Aladdin. Well so one of the other kids grabs the controller and starts playing and well...she held it the wrong way, the d-pad facing up and the buttons in a neat line downwards and the cord sticking out on the right hand side. She got angry when i told her she was doing it wrong (yes, just like some sort of 94 internet meme). Anyways, Aladdin died. A lot. Almost instantly in fact. I guess what i'm trying to say is that just because you CAN doesn't mean it's for the better :P
En réponse à

Memories, they have a habit of sticking to you like...like a pube on a pipe.

Megido
Megido
Inscrit depuis 6275 Jours
Posté par Tinks
Why would you use a sniper rifle on a boss? Is the sniper rifle bolt action or automatic? If it's bolt action that's your own foolish mistake. No bolt action rifle is fast
Regardless, the sniper rifle is generally a bad idea on any boss
One clean hit with the rifle on the chainsaw-guy/executioner stuns, if we are talking abut the RE5 demo, so it's not completely useless :P
En réponse à

Memories, they have a habit of sticking to you like...like a pube on a pipe.

KORNdog
KORNdog
Inscrit depuis 6354 Jours
Posté par Megido
One clean hit with the rifle on the chainsaw-guy/executioner stuns, if we are talking abut the RE5 demo, so it's not completely useless :P
aye, it's just incredibly slow.

the lack of pistol ammo may also have contributed to having to use the rifle. i know each time i've played the demo i've alwasy had to fall back on the rifle since since my pistol had run dry.

@ LABETO - i've played on a 37" and even that feels too small in split screen, thats why im hoping there is a propper full verticle/horizontal split screen option in the final game, rather then the 2 incredibly small widescreen windows.
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SimonM7 - The other mod's bitch
SimonM7
Inscrit depuis 6973 Jours
I see your point of course, and advances should be noted and built upon for sure, but there is such a thing as a game's integrity. When Super Mario World came out that was obviously the benchmark platformer but Sonic didn't adapt its controls regardless. By today's reasoning, if one didn't LIKE how Sonic controlled, found that having to hold right to make him eventually get up to top speed instead of using a button for it was unintuitive or countered his or her "immersion" then that person would demand that the control scheme should change. Which of course is preposterous because Sonic wasn't just about colours being different and having badniks instead of mushroom people. It was just as much about what buttons you pressed.

It's the exact same debate I despise when it comes to mouse and keyboard vs gamepad. You can make all kinds of cases for mouse being faster, but they're ultimately two very different setups that gives you a distinctly different feeling when you play a game.

On a somewhat similar note Red Steel for the Wii is pretty much a terrible game that is awesome because you play it with the Wiimote. Not because that is necessarily BETTER or something all games should adhere to, but because it feels fundamentally different and fun in its own right.

I feel that what people seem to be asking for is to be allowed to pick up the football with their hands because it's more intuitive than kicking it around, but the goals are big because you're supposed to be kicking the ball and what you're left with is pseudo basketball.

I'm not condoning *bad controls* here you must surely understand.

The whole of Korn's post scares me half to death because that sort of conformity would kill all enjoyment I get out of gaming in an instant. I don't care one bit if I'm shooting aliens for this or that reason if I shoot all aliens the exact same way. Gunvalkyrie lives on in my memory not as the game where I shot aliens because there was some.. comet or whatever. The controls in that game and the way it felt playing it is something I can relive by just closing my eyes and imagining it again.

World's a big place and there's obviously place for both. I hope we can all get a bit of what we're looking for.
En réponse à
KORNdog
KORNdog
Inscrit depuis 6354 Jours
On a somewhat similar note Red Steel for the Wii is pretty much a terrible game that is awesome because you play it with the Wiimote. Not because that is necessarily BETTER or something all games should adhere to, but because it feels fundamentally different and fun in its own right.
couldnt dissagree more tbh.

red steel was a poor game through and through, metroid prime 3 showed us how first person controls should work on the wii, red steel showed us how they shouldnt. so the question is...would you rather a first person game have the responsive, and intuative controls of prime 3? or the sloppy controls of red steel?

and this is what i'm getting at, if a game isnt planning on doing it better, then copy someone who does it really well (see halo: combat evolved and its influential controls that have practically been used by everyone since then). im all for new and different control schemes if they work well...but JUST being different (resi 4/5) doesnt help the game one iota...it needs to be good, fast, responsive and intuative on top of that.
En réponse à
Megido
Megido
Inscrit depuis 6275 Jours
Simon: well we could twist it around saying that Sonic was a COMPLETE ripoff of mario because you run from left to right, jump on enemies, collect rings (coins), the levels are split into zones and there's a boss at the end. The running thing is just a small element that ads a bit if difference to a tried and true idea.

I guess my point is that the nightmare you picture is perhaps somewhat exaggerated, as games have been copying each other since the very beginning and we've seen no gaming-apocalypse yet :)

Are you also tired of watching movies? Cause like 90% of all movies follow a pretty conform dramaturgical standard.
En réponse à

Memories, they have a habit of sticking to you like...like a pube on a pipe.

LEBATO - IS WRONG
LEBATO
Inscrit depuis 7072 Jours
Posté par Tinks
Why would you use a sniper rifle on a boss? Is the sniper rifle bolt action or automatic? If it's bolt action that's your own foolish mistake. No bolt action rifle is fast
Yeah, no bolt action rifle is fast, and no one in their right mind would force you to stay put waiting for an animation to end, or pretty much force you to use the rifle for that matter, design, design, design.

By the way, your attitude makes me think you also like the inventory system, lol. Of course, it would be stupid of me not going to the most remote place in the map and browse through a small barely legible window inside a window (co-op) trying to heal myself while zombies just keep on coming.
En réponse à

Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

SimonM7 - The other mod's bitch
SimonM7
Inscrit depuis 6973 Jours
@ Korn

I dunno who's to decide what is good or bad though, people have a hard enough time agreeing on what games are good or what graphics are good. Hell, people disagree, that's the one constant.

As I said before I'm not saying I want bad controls, but there's a difference in adjusting sensitivity of the wiimote corshair to be more fluid and responsive and remapping the entire control scheme.

I'm sure the majority of people sitting down with Gunvalkyrie would want that too to play like Gears, but I don't. God I love that it doesn't.

I can't be sure that every game that does something different will be better, but the times where I've had the BEST gameplay experiences I've been absolutely overwhelmed by the way a game feels. I have *never* had a real gaming life highlight with a game that controls like I'm already used to. Fact.

The very reason gaming has largely become so mundane the last couple of generations - don't pretend like you haven't felt it - is because it's falling into a rut more and more. Everywhere you turn you have games playing essentially the same with pretty pictures and sounds to alter the experience ever so slightly.

That's not just a bad thing of course as quality is consistently high and eyes fall on graphics and narration - no doubt the most talked about things in games these days - but I don't require a control scheme to BEST another every time a developer decides to change it. It just needs to be fun in its own right.

And fun is subjective. The ever returning crux of people having opinions.

Here's one of mine; I thought Red Steel was a blast.
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