Forza Motorsport 3 : Thread

Inscrit depuis 7446 Jours

Che comment on GAF.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1630461...

This will be my last post here in a while. I'll be quite active over in the FM.net forums so you know where to troll me for comments.

A few things before I'm out...

1. Screenshots released so far are photomode shots. I'm usually the one that takes them. Trust me, I don't have teh l33t CG and photoshop skillz. We will release new screenshots all the freaking time and the game that you've seen so far at E3 and Le Mans are literally builds that we've branched for stability way back in mid-May. Which means the game already looks better and is going to look better with each passing week.

2. I respect Polyphony Digital and think they're very talented. All good developers check out other games on the market. I was happy to see that PD came by to take notes on Forza.

3. You can demand all you want but you should know I'm already locked into a PR schedule, which means I'm not going to release assets just because you double-dog dare me. If you start an online petition, maybe I'll think about it.

4. What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?

En réponse à

Che comment on GAF.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16304613&postcount=2170

[quote]This will be my last post here in a while. I'll be quite active over in the FM.net forums so you know where to troll me for comments.

A few things before I'm out...

[b]1. Screenshots released so far are photomode shots. I'm usually the one that takes them. Trust me, I don't have teh l33t CG and photoshop skillz. We will release new screenshots all the freaking time and the game that you've seen so far at E3 and Le Mans are literally builds that we've branched for stability way back in mid-May. Which means the game already looks better and is going to look better with each passing week.[/b]

2. I respect Polyphony Digital and think they're very talented. All good developers check out other games on the market. I was happy to see that PD came by to take notes on Forza.

3. You can demand all you want but you should know I'm already locked into a PR schedule, which means I'm not going to release assets just because you double-dog dare me. If you start an online petition, maybe I'll think about it.

4. What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding? [/quote]

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

dcdelgado

Inscrit depuis 7413 Jours

Ahh i see Che is back!

En réponse à

** Yes We CAN!! **

Kaz Hirai - Sony

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do" LOLOLOLOL!!

alimokrane

Inscrit depuis 7484 Jours

Posté par dcdelgado

Ahh i see Che is back!

Back to ruin the game, in fact. Honestly, cant he just keep his mouth shut.

En réponse à

newbielives

Inscrit depuis 7492 Jours

Ce message est en mode Boulet Time (TM). Pour l'afficher, cliquez ici

Milhouse makes this thread interesting.
Keeep it up hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
HAAAAHHAAHAAHhahahahhaaha

Schmooboo

Inscrit depuis 7110 Jours

Posté par newbielives

Milhouse makes this thread interesting.
Keeep it up hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
HAAAAHHAAHAAHhahahahhaaha

???

try to be a little more constructive please, you dont have to agree with millhouse, but he puts a certain level of effort in his posts.

the same cant be said there.

back to the game(s) we are getting 2 awesome racing games, so almost everyone who has either or both systems and is a racing fan will be most pleased.

En réponse à

When all think alike, no one is thinking very much.

Viginti_Tres

Inscrit depuis 7055 Jours

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gv2Jq_BcvY&amp...

Some, ehh, awesome racing. ^^ Well at least you see you're not on rails with this one... pretty much reminded me of my first tries on a PC sim with a wheel, it was disastrous. ;)

En réponse à

Milhouse

Inscrit depuis 6958 Jours

Posté par GriftGFX

Check out this HDRI photograph, obviously this is what the human eye sees in nature!

No, certainly not. You cannot tell what everybody on this forum is seeing, because this depends on the output device. Most monitors are still not capable of showing real HDR, because they lack a good contrast ration. My 3 years old plasma tv has a much much higher intensity and contrast ratio than any pc monitor does. So videos, games or photos does really look totally different than on my monitor.

En réponse à

Jin187

Inscrit depuis 7298 Jours

Just came across this Mass Forza Effect custom trailer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzyO5LZQwNI

DC, you will appreciate this, its quality! :D

En réponse à

dcdelgado

Inscrit depuis 7413 Jours

EPIC!! :)

En réponse à

** Yes We CAN!! **

Kaz Hirai - Sony

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do" LOLOLOLOL!!

Viginti_Tres

Inscrit depuis 7055 Jours

Posté par Milhouse

No, certainly not. You cannot tell what everybody on this forum is seeing, because this depends on the output device. Most monitors are still not capable of showing real HDR, because they lack a good contrast ration. My 3 years old plasma tv has a much much higher intensity and contrast ratio than any pc monitor does. So videos, games or photos does really look totally different than on my monitor.

You seem to have a slight misconception about HDR photography and tone mapped HDR pics. The later will NOT show more dynamic range on your plasma because the pic still technically shows 8 bit per colour (the pic Grift posted).

Tone mapped HDRIs are NOT what you'd see in real life, if you exaggerate the effect you'll get a completely surreal image. The same is true for games. And I don't think we'll see games with more colour depth in the near future because it'd look shit on any monitor not able to display the colour depth, the large majority of them (because no one seems to care about it and so the industry works around the issue, but that's a topic on it's own).

I don't want to drive this discussion further as it is quite obvious you lost track of your own argument because it has been disproven.

btw: HDR capable monitors start at 20k if I remember right. Can easily go up to 50k.

En réponse à

[quote=Milhouse]

No, certainly not. You cannot tell what everybody on this forum is seeing, because this depends on the output device. Most monitors are still not capable of showing real HDR, because they lack a good contrast ration. My 3 years old plasma tv has a much much higher intensity and contrast ratio than any pc monitor does. So videos, games or photos does really look totally different than on my monitor.[/quote]

You seem to have a slight misconception about HDR photography and tone mapped HDR pics. The later will NOT show more dynamic range on your plasma because the pic still technically shows 8 bit per colour (the pic Grift posted).

Tone mapped HDRIs are NOT what you'd see in real life, if you exaggerate the effect you'll get a completely surreal image. The same is true for games. And I don't think we'll see games with more colour depth in the near future because it'd look shit on any monitor not able to display the colour depth, the large majority of them (because no one seems to care about it and so the industry works around the issue, but that's a topic on it's own).

I don't want to drive this discussion further as it is quite obvious you lost track of your own argument because it has been disproven.

btw: HDR capable monitors start at 20k if I remember right. Can easily go up to 50k.

Optimusv2

Inscrit depuis 7446 Jours

Posté par dcdelgado

Ahh i see Che is back!

He has actually never stopped talking. If anything, he's more talkative now than before. This isn't the first che quote to show up in this thread :)

En réponse à

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

LEBATO

Inscrit depuis 7675 Jours

Well, Che at least said something that makes sense. He said he would be very active in the Forza forums, unlike last time where he gave away major details from the game at GAF, absolutely nonsense.

And please everyone, let's forget about Forza 2. No more screenshots of that game, looked "meh" when it came out, looked BAD when PGR4 came out, and it now looks horrible.

By the way Peugeot won, wow.

En réponse à

Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

Acert93

Inscrit depuis 7524 Jours

Posté par Milhouse

???

There is major artifacting with the FM2 "HDR" technique. I know most overlooked it and shouted me down in the FM2 thread (loud doesn't equal right) but now when people are seeing a proper implimentation it sticks out like a sore thumb. Unfortunately there are so many FM2 bullshots that people don't realize how bad the real game really looked--stuff like the lack of AF coupled with craptastic bilinear filtering lead to some of the most muddy games I have played since the N64. Per artifacting:

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

Crap! GT5P doesn't even have closely that range if intensity than FM2. I pointed this out on some GT5P videos that looks horrible when it comes to contrast.[/quot]

GT5 may not be superior in every technical way, but the major difference I noted 24months ago still stands: PD realized that certain techniques while technically "better" aren't high enough quality to fool the brain. What PD has done is nail the "flat" angle of cars where reflections aren't as pronounced. I was just comparing 2 cars at an intersection this week where one had a very vivid reflection and the other looked quite flat. It wasn't the paint difference, but angle. PD does a nice job of normals (FM2 normals were quite low resolution--happy to see 4x texture resolution!! another area T10 addressed) and NAILING the flat angled lighting with shadow contrast. Reflections via cubemaps are always going to be tricky, especially in conjuction with highlights and the scatter of the paint shaders.

Depends on the lighting condition.

No, the cars on almost every track looked like plastic toys because the colors were over saturated with "HDR" that was far too overbright for the low lighting conditions on most of the courses. It was more of an artistic mess than a technical on, but it was a mess none-the-less.

As I said, and you skipped over, Turn10 has done a looong checklist of things to address the technical issues with FM2.

[quote=Milhouse]No, certainly not. You cannot tell what everybody on this forum is seeing, because this depends on the output device. Most monitors are still not capable of showing real HDR, because they lack a good contrast ration. My 3 years old plasma tv has a much much higher intensity and contrast ratio than any pc monitor does. So videos, games or photos does really look totally different than on my monitor.

Higher intensity and constrast ratios don't equal HDR.

"HDR" is a technique to mimic the fact light in the realworld has both a "color value" as well as intensity. Displays do NOT haveindividual pixel lighting intensities, so the trick is to display on screen how the eye would perceive the light intensity. There are displays that do "true" HDR through brightness control over segments of the display but you will need more than an 24bit display.

En réponse à

[quote=Milhouse]???[/quote]

There is major artifacting with the FM2 "HDR" technique. I know most overlooked it and shouted me down in the FM2 thread (loud doesn't equal right) but now when people are seeing a proper implimentation it sticks out like a sore thumb. Unfortunately there are so many FM2 bullshots that people don't realize how bad the real game really looked--stuff like the lack of AF coupled with craptastic bilinear filtering lead to some of the most muddy games I have played since the N64. Per artifacting:

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0067.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0017.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0156.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0061.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0056.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0006.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0014.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/847_0063.jpg

[quote]Crap! GT5P doesn't even have closely that range if intensity than FM2. I pointed this out on some GT5P videos that looks horrible when it comes to contrast.[/quot]

GT5 may not be superior in every technical way, but the major difference I noted 24months ago still stands: PD realized that certain techniques while technically "better" aren't high enough quality to fool the brain. What PD has done is nail the "flat" angle of cars where reflections aren't as pronounced. I was just comparing 2 cars at an intersection this week where one had a very vivid reflection and the other looked quite flat. It wasn't the paint difference, but angle. PD does a nice job of normals (FM2 normals were quite low resolution--happy to see 4x texture resolution!! another area T10 addressed) and NAILING the flat angled lighting with shadow contrast. Reflections via cubemaps are always going to be tricky, especially in conjuction with highlights and the scatter of the paint shaders.

[quote]Depends on the lighting condition.[/quote]

No, the cars on almost every track looked like plastic toys because the colors were over saturated with "HDR" that was far too overbright for the low lighting conditions on most of the courses. It was more of an artistic mess than a technical on, but it was a mess none-the-less.

As I said, and you skipped over, Turn10 has done a looong checklist of things to address the technical issues with FM2.

[quote=Milhouse]No, certainly not. You cannot tell what everybody on this forum is seeing, because this depends on the output device. Most monitors are still not capable of showing real HDR, because they lack a good contrast ration. My 3 years old plasma tv has a much much higher intensity and contrast ratio than any pc monitor does. So videos, games or photos does really look totally different than on my monitor.[/quote]

Higher intensity and constrast ratios don't equal HDR.

"HDR" is a technique to mimic the fact light in the realworld has both a "color value" as well as intensity. Displays do NOT haveindividual pixel lighting intensities, so the trick is to display on screen how the eye would perceive the light intensity. There are displays that do "true" HDR through brightness control over segments of the display but you will need more than an 24bit display.

Pwn'd by Phaethon360.

vspectra06

Inscrit depuis 8260 Jours

Posté par Acert93

http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/5351/84...

I remember when I complained about the white roof syndrome and people told me real cars had completely white roofs in the sunlight, asking me if I had ever driven behind a car...

En réponse à

LEBATO

Inscrit depuis 7675 Jours

Posté par vspectra06

I remember when I complained about the white roof syndrome and people told me real cars had completely white roofs in the sunlight, asking me if I had ever driven behind a car...

Yeah, people (Jin) told me FM2 had better car models than PGR4, lol!!! Man, why can't we get FM2 out of the picture? I think it's trauma.

En réponse à

Mods, stop changing my SIG! I'm going to end up banning you!

vspectra06

Inscrit depuis 8260 Jours

I really don't see how anyone could make that statement after playing Forza 2 and PGR4 back to back, it's even noticeable in the images. Some of F2's car models are either taken straight from Forza 1 but with added polygons or they ended up using the same blueprints containing inaccurate car proportions.

Maybe it's due to the cost but I think more devs should just use scanning laser tech to get the basic framework of the car models and then work from there.

BTW ACERT, Millhouse is going to believe whatever he wants to believe regardless of how technical and how right you may be...

En réponse à

Milhouse

Inscrit depuis 6958 Jours

Posté par Viginti_Tres

You seem to have a slight misconception about HDR photography and tone mapped HDR pics. The later will NOT show more dynamic range on your plasma because the pic still technically shows 8 bit per colour (the pic Grift posted).

Tone mapping reduces the range of HDR to make details visible on normal output devices. The shot of GriftGFX definitly doesn't show what you are seeing in real life. Just look into the sun. In real life your eyes can see a really high intensity (ok, you will lose details when you are blinded). This is why you need sun glasses. But you are right, the picture will not show more range.

En réponse à

Milhouse

Inscrit depuis 6958 Jours

Posté par Acert93

There is major artifacting with the FM2 "HDR" technique. I know most overlooked it and shouted me down in the FM2 thread (loud doesn't equal right) but now when people are seeing a proper implimentation it sticks out like a sore thumb. Unfortunately there are so many FM2 bullshots that people don't realize how bad the real game really looked--stuff like the lack of AF coupled with craptastic bilinear filtering lead to some of the most muddy games I have played since the N64. Per artifacting

Forza 2 compresses pictures really bad. I mean, this is ridicolous. You are making Forza 2 lighting responsible for the bad picture compression. And your prove are some very bad pictures from bad car models? And why are your pictures less bullshots than other FM2 photomode shots? Doesn't make any sense...

En réponse à

rayy

Inscrit depuis 7528 Jours

Posté par Milhouse

Forza 2 compresses pictures really bad. I mean, this is ridicolous. You are making Forza 2 lighting responsible for the bad picture compression. And your prove are some very bad pictures from bad car models? And why are your pictures less bullshots than other FM2 photomode shots? Doesn't make any sense...

Because acert93 pictures are from a real gameplay perspective, and yours are from photomode that adds postprocessing effects. I normally don't post much here. I just come here for the news and like to read others people opinions about games, but you make me do this post because I can't understand how somebody will think that F2 has better lighting, reflections and car model than PGR3, PGR4 and GT5P. You should be a complete famboy.

En réponse à

Optimusv2

Inscrit depuis 7446 Jours

Forza 2 has it's moments. It surely wasn't the most mindblowing game, but it definitely doesn't always look quite as ugly as some of the more terrible screens will indicate it does.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n120/eldukeo/a0...

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n120/eldukeo/b0...

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n120/eldukeo/d4...

En réponse à

Hironobu Sakaguchi is coming back to reclaim the throne :)

Seeing it in motion on your HDTV, will blow your mind!!

Don't ask any questions just shut up and buy Halo : Ghosts of the Onyx one of the greatest books ever.

pssh! more like electronic g

Jin187

Inscrit depuis 7298 Jours

Lol, the of screenshots FM2 posted in here are a joke! Like op said, it will never blow you away but the game is FAR from ugly...

En réponse à

GriftGFX

Inscrit depuis 7554 Jours

Off screen shots are a joke.

En réponse à

Jin187

Inscrit depuis 7298 Jours

Posté par GriftGFX

Off screen shots are a joke.

Off screen shots do well to replicate what your eyes see, unfortunately you cant connect your Iris to a HDMI cable for some direct feed.

En réponse à

GriftGFX

Inscrit depuis 7554 Jours

Off screen grabs are bullshit. Lets filter the frame buffer through a television set so we can't actually see what the console is producing. It will make ANY game look better, and negates every comparison. They're absolutely useless unless we're comparing televisions/monitors/projectors. And frankly, the best screens will produce an image a lot closer to the frame buffer than some shitty photograph of some random screen will.

En réponse à

Tomarru

Inscrit depuis 6625 Jours

Even in those offscreen shots the aliasing and artifacting along the edges is apparent. Im in the middle, at times F2 looks great, but the slow update of the reflections, the aliasing and the white lines on the edges REALLY hurt it. I think they concentrated so much on the physics side of things that they neglected the graphics of F2. The improvement between F2 and F3 shows just how far behind the curve they really were, in every area they have improved the look of the game. GT:HD and GT5P there is very little difference graphically, PD pretty much nailed their graphics engine in one go, im not sayin its a great engine or whatever, just that PD haven't been able to make the game look markedly better.

En réponse à

Forza Horizon 6

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