I'm sure they meant for the nuke to be rare, anyway. It's still hella lame.

edit: There's a SENTRY GUN? In Call of Duty?

LOL! The more leaks I see.. the less upset I am that they screwed the pooch on the PC version. Or should I be more upset, since this game begs to be modded and rebalanced a hundred times over...? I don't know, but right now, I just think it's funny.

...death streaks?

Yeah, if you are getting owned really bad you can get nifty perks like "use the kit of the guy that keeps owning you, even if you don't have access to the stuff yet."

But nothing to look at here, you really just want Counter Strike with more guns ;)

No, I want Call of Duty without the bullshit. Call of Duty 4's movement is so much more advanced than Counter Strike's, it aint even funny!

But.. uh.. nothing to look at here, you just want some pub scrub game that practically plays itself!

Also: Martyrdom is a deathstreak perk, lmfao...
Also: You can dual wield SMG's? haha!

Think of it this way: IW was kind enough not to split the CoD4 community. One CoD4 (MW1) with dedicated servers, mod tools, and unfubarred gameplay. And one CoD4 (MW2) for the masses that is incompatible with mods and dedicated servers, thus leaving the current community thriving. MW1 runs better, is cheaper, and well established. And now its biggest competition has bowed out.

You should be happy!

Oh, come on.. that's almost as dumb as dual wielding MP5k's. You should be a community manager! ;)

But not as dumb as believing what you wrote negated my point ;)

e.g. The "hardcore" competition niche disables a huge number of perks. MW2 doesn't really look to add anything they need but adds a lot of stuff they need to disable.

Personally I think IW is going the Rockstar route of manufacturing some attention (projected sales are through the rough). But there are some real reasons IW has gone the direction they have and the PC "fans" really haven't "appreciated" what is happening in the PC market. The PC is not the lead platform for MW2, that is pretty much the bottom line. IW chose not to pretend it was (to the detriment of the lead platform) or to half-ass PC specific features for what is by far the smallest community--especially when some of those features were used by hundreds of thousands of non-paying "customers." Sticking to their lead platform approach would in theory cut out some of that and allow some more up-sell on their least profitable platform.

All the while maintaining all the cried over features in the 1st version which is a) essentially the same engine b) has all the major features PC gamers want anyhow like dedicated servers, mod tools, etc c) a cheaper game d) has a thriving community.

Point (a) concerning the engine is pretty relevant, and MW2 not eating into the community (d) means a more focused community.

You were laughing at me 2 years ago about the lack of PC games released to market and those in the channels to be published in the future. This is a very real byproduct of a divisive segment of the PC gaming culture. Until the PC space gets it act cleaned up (the basic stuff like DX10 via Vista/7 install base cementing, baseline entry level new PCs with GPUs that are at least part with the consoles... to bigger issues like QuadCore CPUs being shipped with freaking integrated graphics, finding out of box up sells and unlocks to encourage purchase over piracy, dishonest GPU labeling practives, craptastic performance and troubleshooting issues, basic driver stability issues, etc). And that still doesn't address more core issues facing total conversion mods (yeah, I noticed all you panned that one off and didn't really want to touch it).

The dedicated servers is a big deal--but don't expect that one to change. Big networks see consumer bandwidth increasing all the time and consumers in mass are using P2P online gaming without much of a fight. As you very well know I am a big proponent of dedicated servers--but cry me a river, you guys are all running over to EA, the company who brought us dedicated servers for Battlefield 1943. If that is the sort of dedicated server support we are gonna get from companies we are probably better off with P2P.

But that hasn't stopped some folks from doing DICE/EA PR every chance they get. Yeah, you are mad at IW for taking Dedicated Servers out of CoD4 MW2. But you are worshipping the company who fubared ranked servers in BF2 and then really screwed the pooch with BF1943.

At least in PC land you will have the option to find a clan with their own server to mooch from and not rely on EA or pay for your own server. And mod support is a good thing for obvious reasons based on BFBC1.

Pants really should throw down and challenge your whining on his site. Where is Pants anyhow?

Now if PC gamers got this worked up every time one of their tard friends pirated software maybe we could get somewhere! Of course in "PC rules world" where up is down and down is up, instead of showing IW how it works--by not buying or playing their game--most of these tards are gonna pirate the game. Yeah, show the man!

Karma sucks. Seeing every major PC developer (Valve, id, Epic, Crytek, etc) jump to the consoles should be clue though. When you see things like the PS3 version of CoD4 outselling the PC version (2007 game!!) and the mass CoD4 piracy I thought the writing was on the wall?

IW did bad. They lied to a rabid fanbase. But a platform expected to sell less than 1M copies at full retail price anticipating being the lead design platform for a $30M game is pretty funny. Har har. The uptick in netbook and laptop sales, the economy, and the woes of the GPU market (guess you didn't hear about a ton of NV chips pulling their own RRoD hat trick) the PC market isn't exactly the healthies. Games for Windows died, DX10 was a lame duck due to being paired with a highly unpopular OS, the non-gaming Apple products have sucked in high-priced purchases, and so on.

Really, how do mods and dedicated servers help Activision milk the product for all its worth so they can fund all their unprofitable products in hope of finding the next GH of CoD? By making the PC version the same as the consoles they don't shift resources away from the profitable lead platforms and they also ensure a stronger route for their own DLC initiatives as well as keeping more consumers (i.e. casuals) involved long enough to actually buy some of their products.

I know I am talking to a wall, but lets get a firm grip on reality: Publishers see the PC as bad business. For example, buy a $400 6800GT GPU in Q4 2004 and in Q4 2007 -- a mere 3 years -- you are playing CoD4 at 800x600 on all low at pretty crappy framerates. PC gamers do a lot of upkeep on hardware (including a willingness to maintain servers and clans), but when it comes to supporting software the PC market is soft, to say the least. Publishers look at companies like Intel pushing the HPs' of the world to sell 4Core monster systems with 4GB of memory -- with integrated graphics. How does THAT help publishers capitalize on their investment?

This is what pushed PC developers to the consoles, and now the PC market is reaping what they sowed. And yes, it does mean the loss of the *best features* that I enjoy in the gaming market. But I am more surprised anyone would be surprised the market went this direction.

MW2 is definitely more consolized, which goes back to my first point: At least PC gamers can fall back on MW1 which has the same engine, dedicated server support, and mod tools.

MW2 is a full stand alone expansion (SP, Coop, MP with matchmaking for casuals), hence CoD4 MW2. While I get the kevething about dedicated servers and mods in principle, yet seeing as the game is essentially the SAME GAME by not supporting these features IW did preserve the original community.

But that is too logical.

No amount of rationalization will make MW2 okay. And that's exactly what this is.. rivers of rationalization flowing over the irrational--and a big EA/DICE grudge that just won't quit. I rented multiple BF2 ranked servers, as well as a private unranked server. There were serious issues, but seriously, you need to let it go. It's nothing short of ironic that you're bitching about the general PC gamer response to Infinity Ward while harping so consistently on a five year old game. And EA's console fumbles in the Battlefield franchise don't really mean much to me.. we'll see how they perform when 1943 and Bad Company 2 hit the PC.

You've suggested that we already have Modern Warfare 1, and thus we should be happy? Are you for real? I didn't think I actually had to negate your point, because I didn't actually believe it was sincere. It's too ludicrous to be taken seriously. You seem more angry about PC gamers turning to DICE than most PC gamers are at Infinity Ward, so much so that you're apparently not thinking straight.

Don't forget: you're the one who dragged me into a debate here. I was perfectly happy accepting your jabs and throwing a few back. I didn't want to get into this because I already know we don't see eye to eye here.. and I highly doubt that any amount of discussion is going to change that. I actually respect your opinion, I value it, even.. but I certainly don't have to agree with you.

I mean, seriously. PC's are bad business? They may not be big business... but you're delusional if you think they're not still seeing a return on their investment. So much so that they're actually spending more money on the PC version of Call of Duty than ever before. They're trying to maximize their investment. I respect that, but I don't respect their methods. It's also more cost effective than ever to create multiplatform titles for the PC. We've seen net gains in franchises from EA, Activision, Ubisoft, and even Capcom. Those are all pretty promising signs, if you ask me. Ultimately, you can do what's good for your business without taking a massive shit on your oldest fans. Valve has continued to be extremely successful on the platform, and they've done it while continuing to keep in the good graces of their PC fan base. Yes... Left 4 Dead 2 was a disaster, but their response was brilliant, and for the most part, things are smooth sailing in Valve-land.

If Activision thought that PC's were bad business, there would be no Call of Duty on the PC period. All they care about is their ROI. In 2008 we actually gained an extra Call of Duty on the PC in World At War. And for the record, Call of Duty 4 sold more than a million copies on the PC (more than two million, actually). A drop in the bucket compared to their console sales? Definitely, but every drop counts, especially when it's so cost effective to create Windows software along side their console ports (or console software along side their Windows ports).

You make it sound like some kind of charity case; it's not.

..and it's sorta silly to suggest that it's the same game. Same engine? Sure.. same gameplay? Eh.. sorta.. but there is loads of new content. If you think that PC Gamers don't want that new content as much as anyone else.. well, you're just wrong.

It doesn't matter what the lead platform for Modern Warfare 2 is, and it never has. The fact is that IWNet is an investment. They're not doing this because it's cheaper than incorporating support which is essentially already complete (thanks to the similarities between MW2 and its predecessor). They're spending more on the PC version of MW2 than ever.. with hopes that it will increase their revenue. What if it doesn't? Have you ever considered that? Valve has released real data in the past that proves the effectiveness of lower prices on the PC.. I hope to see L4D2 making a far bigger splash on Steam than MW2.. I hope.

And for what it's worth.. Total conversions are declining. That's why I don't particularly care to discuss that issue--because it's not at the heart of the mod issue at all. Never mind that total conversions are still responsible for some of the biggest steps forward in gameplay in this genre. We wouldn't have the very PC centric Natural Selection 2 or Nuclear Dawn if it weren't for the fact that they got their start creating content on Source. Those have both since turned into retail projects (one on their own engine, granted), and both look to do more for gamers than just about anything the big guys are turning out for the masses. As important as I believe total conversions are, put them aside and just go play some TF2.. then try to tell me that you can't see how detrimental it would be if Valve took our mod tools away. Hell.. community maps have become official updates in TF2!

One example of why mods are so important: "The best thing you can do [to break into the industry] to both develop the skills you will need and also come to the attention of game developers is to work on a MOD. About half of Valve comes out of the MOD community, and more and more game companies are recruiting out of MOD teams." - Gabe Newell.

Modders are the same people who grow into delivering the best games in the industry.

I want a new Call of Duty as much as anyone else. Some silly rationalization about how it keeps me and my PC brethren together in one place isn't going to change that we're losing one of the best PC GAMES in recent memory to big business. That's just shitty for the gamer.

Not that this has much of anything to do with me being critical of deathstreaks and dual wielding SMG's. The only relation is that I won't be able to play a stripped down (and thus enhanced) Call of Duty.

I get it: you disagree with every position I've taken on this subject.. but you could at least show a little more respect than Robert Bowling. The idea that we just just take this laying down and be happy about it is nothing short of ridiculous. And for the record, no one is worshiping DICE. You seem to see both criticism and enthusiasm as much more than it really is.

Oh, and we're not losing dedicated servers and mods. We're just losing Call of Duty. It may even become a trend, but ultimately, it's not the end of anything..

Just out of curiosity, what's the last PC game that you spent more than 100 hours playing online? Not that it has anything to do with this discussion, I'm just genuinely curious. I'm not trying to mount some kind of offense here either..

PS. I didn't know that I was no longer allowed to discuss or criticize Call of Duty. My bad!

Eh, more disappointing than hurt. There are other games.. but Call of Duty 4 is my most played FPS ever, so I think it goes without saying that I'm pretty fond of it. I never cared for a lot of the perks and killstreaks and hardcore modes and whatnot though, so now that I see that they're layering on the excessive silly stuff I'm a little less upset I think. It goes without saying that I think there's a good game in there somewhere in MW2, but I don't think stuff like dual wielding or over the top kill streak (and death streak) modifiers do anything to enhance the game.. so it makes my decision to skip it a little easier really, knowing that I can't play a highly tweaked version of the game..

Hate is a strong word too. I love Call of Duty, that's why I'm disappointed in the first place.

I actually just played some Call of Duty 4 for the first time since they announced IWNet. It's still the best combat ever. It would be nice to see some people heavily commit to some custom content. It would be nice to see some new competition maps since the future of the franchise is sorta dead in that department for now.

Oh, and sentry guns, lol.

And since no one replied to Sath...The Xbox version comes out on the PC on the same day it comes out on the Xbox.

I've still never forgiven Nintendo for making Mario 3D.

I stopped right there (darn, 2nd sentence). You can twist and turn the facts however it seems fit to ditch the ol' gal and to embrace the new, but cry me a freaking river BF1943 was released in July. They had *significant* server issues for multiple weeks and never did work out the issues.

It is called an observation, Grift, when a repeated behavior occurs and was repeated with the most recent release of a product.

What IW did was wrong, but I am laughing my pants off (in a sad way of course) seeing how angry with rage you are over all of this as you use of words and arguments that Blackhawk said it well, "you must have really been hurt by what IW did to keep up this level of Hate!, you sound more bitter than Sath." I mean for crying out loud even a cursory exploration of the topic from the very beginning resulted in you being hostile to anyone and everyone who even dared to look at the issue other than the PC consumer one.

Oddly, I foresee a situation where any criticism of the new loved game will turn into a flamefest. I find it curious that the bastion of hope and argument for dedicated servers pretty much has had pretty big issues in this area. As for jabs and below the belt anger rants on this, well, I can read post histories too! But your anger isn't only visible only to me, so meh. Sadly how you reply to my posts indicates it isn't an issue of seeing eye to eye, but one where it can be seen only one way, even if that means not comprehending other points of view.

And it isn't even like I am defending IW not telling the truth. Nor do I agree with the general movement in the market from a consumer perspective. (duh) But at some point the rubber does meet the road.

Btw, we do agree on one thing completely: the Xbox 360 version of CoD4 MW2 is being released on the PC at the same time it is being released on the 360. Cute, I like that! But it still doesn't mean I will drink the kool-aid and buy the, "IW is evil, DICE is the savior!" mantra or artificially conclude MW2 = trash. Heck, I could kevetch about IW all day long (e.g. iw32.exe error, even after a complete re-installation? You are kidding me, right??!) and the graphics I have seen in MW2 so far look pretty ... 2007?

But I will report back to you later in November and probably be complaining about the net code ;) Of course I decided to say, "screw it" and just brought my mouse to the console party so say hello lame tactical nuke!! :P

@ Roxwell: Will you ever forgive Sony for going into 4D?

4D? I'll never forgive them for going into 3D.

Shucks. It's not bait and switch, it's bait and walk away. You can take shots at me, but apparently returning fire is against the rules too. Guess I need a better perk to get through to you!Oh, the irony. You're blowing it all out of proportion as much as any PC hardliner is.. and you refuse to take much of anything I have to say into consideration. I mean, seriously dude, you keep harping on points I have responded to in the past.. what the hell is the point? You just view them as some illogical hate tirades, and there's (hardly) an ounce of hate in that post! Which brings me back to..

"And for the record, no one is worshiping DICE. You seem to see both criticism and enthusiasm as much more than it really is." - Me.Who even brought Bad Company 2 or DICE back into this thread? Surely it wasn't me.

MW2 = trash? Huh? Like I said.. I don't know, three posts ago (?).. I'm sure there's a good game in there somewhere. It's a shame it's hidden under layers of excessive bullshit, though.

RE: Counter Strike with more guns.

This statement couldn't be further from the truth, but it did get me thinking... and I just thought I'd share. My dream games:

1) A Battlefield game with Call of Duty's infantry controls.
2) A Counter Strike game with Call of Duty's infantry controls.
3) A Halo game with Call of Duty's infantry controls.

I love Call of Duty 4.

edit: They took lean out of the PC version too?! What. The. Fuck.

Pretty lame response by IW. Like I said earlier, their PR is horrible. Why the need to lie? Why not just say, "It is co-developed with the 360 being the lead platform. The markets have shifted and we are dedicated to delivering a PC title customized to meet the needs of the PC market, like text chat and quality mouse support. But the goal was to develop a title that played the same across all three platforms as we feel that is the best approach to deliver the best product."

IMO I think IW is trying to raise controversy for mindshare. Free advertising and all. Never hurt GTA...

They actually *did* say pretty much just that in the best buy chat... but come on. If you think "text chat and mouse support" qualify as "the needs" of the PC market... ugh. It goes far beyond that.

I wonder if there's even a console in COD4MW2.